1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

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1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

#1 Unread post by CoinPyro »

Good evening, everybody,
While sifting through the last coin envelope my grandfather had from Littleton, I came across a 1961-P proof nickel. Upon (much) closer inspection, I began to notice evidence that a doubled die may be present on this nickel. I am posting this with an abundance of caution, as my phone sucks at taking photos through plastic wrapping and this doubled die is extremely nitpicky. I will need your eyes to help confirm or deny this one. I know it's probably worth nothing, but if this is confirmed, it would be the first doubled die I've found in my coin collection so far!

I sourced the comparison photos and the whole idea this may be a doubled die from Variety Vista, specifically this page: http://varietyvista.com/04b%20JN%20DD%2 ... DDR003.htm

In case anyone's worried, I am not removing the coin from its plastic packaging until I can put it inside a coin holder with gloves, doubled die or not. This is by far the oldest proof and one of the only proofs in the whole coin collection so far. Images below; any and all feedback is appreciated.
1961 Nickel 1.jpg
1961 Nickel 2.jpg
1961 Nickel 3.jpg
1961 Nickel 4.jpg
Last edited by CoinPyro on Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Double-Die - Seeking Confirmation

#2 Unread post by SensibleSal66 »

Hello. I'm not familiar with this series for doubling. What I wanted to do is correct you in your announcement that it's a "double-die". It should be 'Doubled Die" '.See the difference? The Die is doubled not a double strike.
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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Double-Die - Seeking Confirmation

#3 Unread post by CoinPyro »

SensibleSal66 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:51 am Hello. I'm not familiar with this series for doubling. What I wanted to do is correct you in your announcement that it's a "double-die". It should be 'Doubled Die" '.See the difference? The Die is doubled not a double strike.
Oh, let me fix that.

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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

#4 Unread post by richard560729 »

That is a beautiful coin.
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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

#5 Unread post by Coin Mule »

Hey C, I would recommend going back and looking at this coin with 3x magnification, max of 5x. it appears from your photo you may be using a digital microscope or are taking the photo from your monitor, either way your image is severely pixelated. Try again with 3x magnification and post the image directly and not by picture of the monitor. Remember with a microscope you will see things that are not there at 3 - 5 x. 3 - 5x is what the TPGs use.
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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

#6 Unread post by Paul »

Possible…
Close-up image of the base of "RIB" in PLURIBUS please?
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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

#7 Unread post by CoinPyro »

Coin Mule wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:21 pm Hey C, I would recommend going back and looking at this coin with 3x magnification, max of 5x. it appears from your photo you may be using a digital microscope or are taking the photo from your monitor, either way your image is severely pixelated. Try again with 3x magnification and post the image directly and not by picture of the monitor. Remember with a microscope you will see things that are not there at 3 - 5 x. 3 - 5x is what the TPGs use.
For all of my photos, I'm using my iPhone 10's camera directly on the coin. I'm restricted by the limitations of my phone's zoom quality, basically. This is the absolute best photo I could attain. I hope it helps!
1961 Nickel 5.jpg
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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

#8 Unread post by CoinPyro »

Paul wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:48 pm Possible…
Close-up image of the base of "RIB" in PLURIBUS please?
These two are the best I could get. I hope these help!
1961 Nickel 6.jpg
1961 Nickel 7.jpg

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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

#9 Unread post by Paul »

Thanks for those images.

Unfortunately, as this is such a VERY MINOR doubling, I am not able to see the
teeny tiny splits on the serifs.
Looking at this coin personally, and viewing the images posted in the Variety Vista link, are you able to see those splits?
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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

#10 Unread post by CoinPyro »

Paul wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:17 pm Thanks for those images.

Unfortunately, as this is such a VERY MINOR doubling, I am not able to see the
teeny tiny splits on the serifs.
Looking at this coin personally, and viewing the images posted in the Variety Vista link, are you able to see those splits?
The only split I am able to clearly identify is on the 'C' in 'AMERICA'. I can kind of spot some of the splitting on the last 'A' as well (it is a lot more "blobby" at the base than the other A in the same word, which is exactly how the VV coin would look at a similar zoom distance, I infer). I was mainly using the top section as a "just in case" and trying to find backup evidence. I didn't want to post here without doing my homework. Frankly, I couldn't see the changes on the top either. I thought maybe someone more experienced could see something I didn't. It's happened before and surely will happen again.

I already knew it wasn't going to be a big deal coin anyway, mainly because of just how small the error is. The primary reason I even posted this was because it is my first find so far with serious potential to be a doubled die. That and it is in proof state; even the packaging it's in had been untouched for at least 30 years.

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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

#11 Unread post by Coin Mule »

CoinPyro wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:55 pm
Coin Mule wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:21 pm Hey C, I would recommend going back and looking at this coin with 3x magnification, max of 5x. it appears from your photo you may be using a digital microscope or are taking the photo from your monitor, either way your image is severely pixelated. Try again with 3x magnification and post the image directly and not by picture of the monitor. Remember with a microscope you will see things that are not there at 3 - 5 x. 3 - 5x is what the TPGs use.
For all of my photos, I'm using my iPhone 10's camera directly on the coin. I'm restricted by the limitations of my phone's zoom quality, basically. This is the absolute best photo I could attain. I hope it helps!
1961 Nickel 5.jpg
Hi C, I see no pixilation in this one, very clear, oh and it may not be major, but by finding it, you will be able to identify the really clear ones. 😎
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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

#12 Unread post by Earle42 »

I agree - making the coin actually a "big deal" for learning anyway!
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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

#13 Unread post by CoinPyro »

Earle42 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:28 pm I agree - making the coin actually a "big deal" for learning anyway!
I'll admit it definitely is exciting, especially after fighting to prove it to myself and you guys, to know I do have a tiny doubled die in the collection. The fact that I found one so tiny makes me feel I've learned even more than I thought I have. I gained more knowledge here that will help me find any other errors a little easier, too, I'm sure.

Of course, none of this would have happened without the dedication of y'all to helping me confirm or refute my claim. I'm glad all the effort went into what I thought it was and not a false alarm. Even if it had been a mistake, I know I would have learned just as much. I'll continue posting anything else of interest; hopefully the next one is a little more obvious, though. This was pretty painful. 😂

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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

#14 Unread post by CoinPyro »

Paul wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:17 pm Thanks for those images.

Unfortunately, as this is such a VERY MINOR doubling, I am not able to see the
teeny tiny splits on the serifs.


I wanted to ask you, since this coin appears to be in better shape than the nickel used for the DDR-003 photos on Variety Vista... should I reach out to them and offer to send my coin in for better shots? While their photos worked for this identification, they only barely did so. Sure it's not a major variety by any means, but I thought it would be worth asking all the same.

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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

#15 Unread post by Paul »

Sure, you can do that....

Can you determine the "Die State" of your coin?
....... & is it different than the one that they have pictured for that attribution?
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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

#16 Unread post by CoinPyro »

Paul wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:36 pm Sure, you can do that....

Can you determine the "Die State" of your coin?
....... & is it different than the one that they have pictured for that attribution?
I've never tried doing this before, but let's take a stab. I did find a few tiny points of interest. I will do my best to emphasize them as I crop the pics. Photo bomb (9 photos total) incoming!
RED circles are the important points, or at least points I am most convinced mean something.
ORANGE circles are ones of potential interest. These were circled more out of caution.
DIE GRADE 1.jpg
DIE GRADE 2.jpg
DIE GRADE 3.jpg
DIE GRADE 4.jpg
.
Rest your eyes!
...alright enough of that. Back to it.
DIE GRADE 5.jpg
DIE GRADE 6.jpg
DIE GRADE 7.jpg
DIE GRADE 8.jpg
DIE GRADE 9.jpg
Overall, the die looks like it wasn't fresh but also hadn't seen a ton of use yet, either. There's a couple minor issues but nothing screams heavily used die to me.
As for their coin's grade on VV? Their photos are from Stage B. My coin seems to have the same notch on the 'N' of 'UNUM' as theirs, but beyond that I have no idea how similar it is. They do not show much of the coin, sadly, and it's basically impossible for me to tell if my coin is the same stage of this die or a different one.

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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

#17 Unread post by JTCC »

Proof coins still aren’t the most perfect coins ever, what you see on the coin is dust, dings, and maybe some minor carbon spots.
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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

#18 Unread post by CoinPyro »

Paul wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:17 pm
Looking at this coin personally, and viewing the images posted in the Variety Vista link, are you able to see those splits?
Today, I have a little update on this DDR!

As best I can tell, this is 1961-P, DDR-003, as listed on Variety Vista (http://varietyvista.com/04b%20JN%20DD%2 ... B%20Photos). I tried my darnedest to get better photos and I think I captured it as best I can. Yes, it's incredibly small, but I don't care; it's cool to me and this coin is nice enough I'm willing to try. I think I've also found a minor doubled-die on the obverse; I'll make a separate topic on that later. I will probably send this coin to CONECA for confirmation or refutation of my claims in the future.

My coin is always to the left in these images. Variety Vista images are used as reference to the immediate right of their respective sections. Credit goes to James Wiles and Delma K. Romines for imagery and reference coin.
DDR DUAL COMP 1.png
DDR DUAL COMP 2.png

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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

#19 Unread post by Paul »

The first thing to remember here is that Jefferson Nickels just may be the most difficult doubling attribution of modern-day coinage.
The "Spreads" are incredibly tiny. Looking at your last images that you have posted here, I don't believe it's possible to attribute this coin as a doubled die (remember I'm using a 42 inch flat-panel high definition monitor) using the equipment you have.

I'm sure that I have made some posts regarding "Die States"........ they should be in the memory hole somewhere here!

If you would like me to take a look at it for you, please shoot me a private message.
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Re: 1961-P Proof Nickel Doubled Die - Seeking Confirmation

#20 Unread post by Coin Mule »

Pyro, send it to Paul, let him confirm it. I did with my latest VAMs, it is cheap insurance, and you might get the famous pressed coneca cent also.
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