1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
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1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
OK COINHelpers...
I saw this on another forum and thought it was a good coin to debate. It is posted here as a learning tool for newbies - and all the rest of us!
I have my opinion of the following whether its a delamination error or "struck through" coin. Let the debate begin and list why you chose the one you did. It will be educational for us all. Reading the clues on the surface will help form an opinion. I will post mine after awhile so I don't end up "offering" any of the clues yet and influence others. BTW...I also am not saying I am correct in my opinion, but I think I can make a decent "case."
I have been on the other forum since 2011 and have come to respect some of the members there greatly. Don't feel badly about posting your opinion b/c some of the ones over there debating are people I consider very knowledgeable in coins.
No fair cheating and using the link!
This is about learning...not about getting a "right" answer. After hearing from people here I might also change my mind if they see something I do not.
I saw this on another forum and thought it was a good coin to debate. It is posted here as a learning tool for newbies - and all the rest of us!
I have my opinion of the following whether its a delamination error or "struck through" coin. Let the debate begin and list why you chose the one you did. It will be educational for us all. Reading the clues on the surface will help form an opinion. I will post mine after awhile so I don't end up "offering" any of the clues yet and influence others. BTW...I also am not saying I am correct in my opinion, but I think I can make a decent "case."
I have been on the other forum since 2011 and have come to respect some of the members there greatly. Don't feel badly about posting your opinion b/c some of the ones over there debating are people I consider very knowledgeable in coins.
No fair cheating and using the link!
This is about learning...not about getting a "right" answer. After hearing from people here I might also change my mind if they see something I do not.
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Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
Looks like a struck through to me anyways . : )
Thanks for sharing !
Thanks for sharing !
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
I am not smart enough yet to give an opinion, I can only say that you can still see the E and L so that must say something.
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
My chips are also on "strike through" due to loss of details caused by the interfering material filling the die cavity instead of the metal.
This is an interesting topic to me! Thanks for posting, Earle! I like the "learning opportunity" approach! You must have been a teacher ;) Looking forward to the much more experienced chiming it.
This is an interesting topic to me! Thanks for posting, Earle! I like the "learning opportunity" approach! You must have been a teacher ;) Looking forward to the much more experienced chiming it.
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
I agree - This is an interesting example As a Young "Hunter" I do not know what this is?
I do notice that the Columns of Monticello are very weak - Is the because of the interfering material filling the Die Cavity as mentioned above?
How come the "E" and the "L" somehow aren't more distorted or altered?
Also - What's the little "bump" between the "L" in Monticello and the "S" in Cents?
Also noticed on the Obverse the Jefferson's Ponytail (Yes - one of our greatest Presidents had a ponytail!) is weak / faded as well
I hope the answer does not involve any more binary equations - I'm still having Precalc flashbacks from the last one y'all did!
Michael - The Funkmeister
I do notice that the Columns of Monticello are very weak - Is the because of the interfering material filling the Die Cavity as mentioned above?
How come the "E" and the "L" somehow aren't more distorted or altered?
Also - What's the little "bump" between the "L" in Monticello and the "S" in Cents?
Also noticed on the Obverse the Jefferson's Ponytail (Yes - one of our greatest Presidents had a ponytail!) is weak / faded as well
I hope the answer does not involve any more binary equations - I'm still having Precalc flashbacks from the last one y'all did!
Michael - The Funkmeister
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
Go for it! Its all about learning and you are the main teacher here
I thought it would be a good exercise in teaching people how to sleuth their errors.
I thought it would be a good exercise in teaching people how to sleuth their errors.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
Good clues to notice.Funky Strike wrote: ↑Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:43 pm I do notice that the Columns of Monticello are very weak - Is the because of the interfering material filling the Die Cavity as mentioned above?
How come the "E" and the "L" somehow aren't more distorted or altered?
Also - What's the little "bump" between the "L" in Monticello and the "S" in Cents?
Good you looked on both sides. But in this case its a red herring for the pony tail b/c that part of design is opposite the upper right above MonticelloAlso noticed on the Obverse the Jefferson's Ponytail (Yes - one of our greatest Presidents had a ponytail!) is weak / faded as well
I hope the answer does not involve any more binary equations - I'm still having Precalc flashbacks from the last one y'all did!
Michael - The Funkmeister
Nah...just a discussion about the problems I have with the way they justify Einstein's idea about how space time curves due to gravity. Mirages are made from similar causes they cite. I am not sure I buy it. Relativity works for a lot of answers, but hey, quantum physics is also "known" to be true and the two contradict one another.
Just DON'T ask me to add two simple numbers together accurately without my fingers
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Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
I am going with both, a Struck Through on a Delamination.
This is what caused the flake to rise and peel back, plus that looks like a lamination crack next to the S that goes up to the peeled back corner: Also notice how the peeled back corner continues to open along the edge to the southeast corner of the Struck Through...or maybe I am just seeing things and playing it safe lol
This is what caused the flake to rise and peel back, plus that looks like a lamination crack next to the S that goes up to the peeled back corner: Also notice how the peeled back corner continues to open along the edge to the southeast corner of the Struck Through...or maybe I am just seeing things and playing it safe lol
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
I can't wait for the Answer . We almost there yet ?
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" All replies are my opinion based on experience"
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
Remember since none of us have this in hand, the pictures are the best we can do. This exercise is one of trying to use clues to figure out and explain what we believe we see. Daniel stopped in so I will wait until after he adds his bit.
@Paul want to join in? We are looking for opinions and reasons that help people understand errors and I am sure you could supply some valuable input.
I am guessing maybe tonight I will give my OPINIONS and why. I also will post the opinion of someone I was pleased to find mine agreed with on the other forum. I have been e-associated with this person for a number of years, reading their input, and been amazed at the level of knowledge they have concerning coin production and errors. IMO this person is a peer to the hobby's noted error specialist, Mike Diamond.
@Paul want to join in? We are looking for opinions and reasons that help people understand errors and I am sure you could supply some valuable input.
I am guessing maybe tonight I will give my OPINIONS and why. I also will post the opinion of someone I was pleased to find mine agreed with on the other forum. I have been e-associated with this person for a number of years, reading their input, and been amazed at the level of knowledge they have concerning coin production and errors. IMO this person is a peer to the hobby's noted error specialist, Mike Diamond.
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Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
This is a delamination but not struck through, a strike through would have impeded the strike more and you would not be able to see the E or the L this well or at all, and it would be much smoother inside the area in question. I also believe this happened to the planchet before it was struck and why it doesn't have the appearance of a typical delamination.
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
Thanks Lee / Daniel for the education of this coin. I had it as a strike through even though the lettering is evident . I think this will help us all .
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
I have never seen a delamination error in real life - and I have found that seeing something for real does help in understanding - I'll have to go "hunting" for one!
These are good exercises! Thank You Earle!
These are good exercises! Thank You Earle!
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
Since you asked...... I will make a comment here.
Proper imagery is the key to diagnostics. With all my years of photographing coins, I can pretty much make any coin look anyway I want.
Of course, the images that you have posted here, take a more in depth knowledge of the differentiation needed to ascertain the "Error" that is depicted in that image. "Lighting" is the biggest issue pertaining to diagnostics. Learning to "Read" images is also a learning curve situation.
Becoming exceptionally proficient at this, only comes with having looked at thousands of images, under all different conditions....& having been active at this for so long, I understand why individuals using high magnification devices, make mistakes they do.
Even with the ultra confusing close-up image that you had posted here, there were several telltale indicators as to the nature of this anomaly.
Proper imagery is the key to diagnostics. With all my years of photographing coins, I can pretty much make any coin look anyway I want.
Of course, the images that you have posted here, take a more in depth knowledge of the differentiation needed to ascertain the "Error" that is depicted in that image. "Lighting" is the biggest issue pertaining to diagnostics. Learning to "Read" images is also a learning curve situation.
Becoming exceptionally proficient at this, only comes with having looked at thousands of images, under all different conditions....& having been active at this for so long, I understand why individuals using high magnification devices, make mistakes they do.
Even with the ultra confusing close-up image that you had posted here, there were several telltale indicators as to the nature of this anomaly.
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
OK... Sit back, grab a Pepsi, put your feet up by the air condtioner and...
Thanks all for the input. And I think we all can agree with Paul's wisdom concerning pictures in that hands on can show what photos do not. So the best we can do on forums is give a guess of what the pics show us.
As a former teacher, I enjoy teaching/sharing and this post was an exercise in seeing how I attempt to have a coin tell me what it has been through. They can talk, just not in English. And I don't always hear them correctly either.
When I finally get the point in life that I know my opinions are RIGHT, I am at the point I know nothing.
My thoughts are this is a strike through.
Why not a delamination?
My for-a-second thought after seeing the initial picture was delamination b/c of how the surface looks with a “ghosted image” in the area.
That thought lasted a second or so noticing the very uniform edges of the anomaly. As per error-ref.com (http://www.error-ref.com/?s=delamination):
BTW - error-ref.com DOES make the following point:
Although a struck though coin can have its damaged area look like anything you can imagine that might get between the die and the planchet, typically delaminations do not have 4 almost straight sides.
Why is so much of the L showing but the building looks to be massively messed up? My OPINION is that we are looking at a 2D picture trying to sleuth a 3D object.
I may be wrong, but I think the void is pretty uniform in depth. Following is an annotated picture showing how I think the lighting (as Paul mentioned) shows different than what we think we see. Note the orange arrows point to the shadow being approximately the same size and, if anything, the step area in question is slightly higher (less affected/flattened than appears) since the shadow below the affected step area is just slightly bigger at its bottom.
There does not appear to much difference in the depth when considering the shadows and looking carefully once more at the picture.
So what is the blob and dark area not in the void?
THEORY: It could if this is a strike through that the object was stuck to the coin (it happens). A proper hit gouged the metal below the L (now void area) and the impact popped the thin object out of where it had been pressed into the planchet with 20 tons of pressure.
This is my guess.
I would appreciate if someone could show me where I may have made mistakes in my thinking.
When I value ‘being right’ over what is right, I am then right...a fool.
Thanks all for the input. And I think we all can agree with Paul's wisdom concerning pictures in that hands on can show what photos do not. So the best we can do on forums is give a guess of what the pics show us.
As a former teacher, I enjoy teaching/sharing and this post was an exercise in seeing how I attempt to have a coin tell me what it has been through. They can talk, just not in English. And I don't always hear them correctly either.
When I finally get the point in life that I know my opinions are RIGHT, I am at the point I know nothing.
My thoughts are this is a strike through.
Why not a delamination?
My for-a-second thought after seeing the initial picture was delamination b/c of how the surface looks with a “ghosted image” in the area.
That thought lasted a second or so noticing the very uniform edges of the anomaly. As per error-ref.com (http://www.error-ref.com/?s=delamination):
[emphasis added]Definition: Lamination errors are planchet errors in which the surface of a coin cracks and flakes. It is generally believed that lamination errors are caused by contaminants in the alloy that cause the metal to separate along the horizontal plane. Lamination errors can develop before or after the strike.
BTW - error-ref.com DOES make the following point:
Lamination is putting layers together while delamination is taking them apart (there is that teacher coming out again!)While “delamination error” would be the proper term, we’re stuck with the terminology we’ve inherited from previous researchers.
Although a struck though coin can have its damaged area look like anything you can imagine that might get between the die and the planchet, typically delaminations do not have 4 almost straight sides.
Why is so much of the L showing but the building looks to be massively messed up? My OPINION is that we are looking at a 2D picture trying to sleuth a 3D object.
I may be wrong, but I think the void is pretty uniform in depth. Following is an annotated picture showing how I think the lighting (as Paul mentioned) shows different than what we think we see. Note the orange arrows point to the shadow being approximately the same size and, if anything, the step area in question is slightly higher (less affected/flattened than appears) since the shadow below the affected step area is just slightly bigger at its bottom.
There does not appear to much difference in the depth when considering the shadows and looking carefully once more at the picture.
So what is the blob and dark area not in the void?
THEORY: It could if this is a strike through that the object was stuck to the coin (it happens). A proper hit gouged the metal below the L (now void area) and the impact popped the thin object out of where it had been pressed into the planchet with 20 tons of pressure.
This is my guess.
I would appreciate if someone could show me where I may have made mistakes in my thinking.
When I value ‘being right’ over what is right, I am then right...a fool.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
Lee, what did they say over at the other Forum ? Here we seem to be divided . Has or is coin going to be attributed ? I would be interested to see how this turns out .
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
This is an example of the imagery that I use for surface variations......
Notice how the "Lighting" is used to show you exactly what's going on:
Notice how the "Lighting" is used to show you exactly what's going on:
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
What year is that Delaminated Wheat Penny?
You are never too old to learn something new
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
1944
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
After seeing Paul's example, I am withdrawing my initial stand on multi-error (choosing both) and siding with delamination. The error on the nickel appears just like the error on the penny, but in a smaller scale.
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
Same consensus as the opinion I came to looking at the coin. I only saw Coop's answer after I had already come up with my own opinion. He did not mention the shadows and lighting though.SensibleSal66 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:37 pm Lee, what did they say over at the other Forum ? Here we seem to be divided . Has or is coin going to be attributed ? I would be interested to see how this turns out .
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
SensibleSal66 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:37 pm Lee, what did they say over at the other Forum ? Here we seem to be divided . Has or is coin going to be attributed ? I would be interested to see how this turns out .
Same consensus as the opinion I came to looking at the coin. I only saw Coop's answer after I had already come up with my own opinion. He did not mention the shadows and lighting though.
One more thing I forgot to mention that I meant to was that I was thinking if this is a strike through, the object could have been a thin one. Hence the details that can be seen remain. This is something Coop did mention in his explanation:[/quote]
Here you go: Start here...
CCF debate Coop on p.2
Which all shows to go you that experts can differ as well on opinions - and especially as Paul has reminded us - when looking at pictures.
Granted a lot of you here do not know Coop, so to put a little background here, there are over 108,000 users on CCF and you find many posts where people say...wait until Coop chimes in.
If you look through his posts, he, like Paul, more depth of concept on the coining process and coins overall than most of us in the hobby. Over the last 10 years I have been very impressed with his knowledge, and he also has a VAST collection of coins and errors with references that he has links (in his signature) for sharing.
So am I SURE I am right? Nope! That's why I like this coin. But I still lean towards a thin strike though (but won't shut the book entirely on a very unusual delam!).
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
Sorry Paul...you lost me. I understand what you mean about the image...which leaves it open for interpretation right?
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
- Paul
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
Yes, being able to "Read" a 2 dimensional image,… Requires a pretty good learning curve.
Choosing the proper angle and lighting, as in the example I posted, takes any guesswork out of the equation.
Of course I could've imaged it differently to confuse a numismatic diagnostician. But that wasn't my intention.
… And this is why so many individuals get "Taken", when the image of the anomaly is intentionally misrepresented.
Choosing the proper angle and lighting, as in the example I posted, takes any guesswork out of the equation.
Of course I could've imaged it differently to confuse a numismatic diagnostician. But that wasn't my intention.
… And this is why so many individuals get "Taken", when the image of the anomaly is intentionally misrepresented.
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
I agree.
The person who took the photos is no fly by night eBay seller though, so at least we know that. The owner also shows typical coin photography skills for not deliberately trying to get the lighting correct to emphasize whatever details would need be to highlight pertinent details.
When you asked "why?" I was just confused b/c what you said about the pics and 2D vs. 3D was something you and I both had pointed out.
I was assuming the number of times all of that was mentioned that people were understanding that the pictures are all we have to assess, so we were taking the available data and thinking through the details/clues to figure out what the cause of that coin's appearance, in hand, would be.
Revision:
More thought (taking into account all the "picture vs. reality" above)... the thickness of an object causing a strike though and its hardness should also be determines the details that will be struck through the object into the coin. A tiny flake of very thin metal with a harness more than the nickel planchet would likely leave no details below it when pooped out. But a piece of thick (relative term) cotton cloth/paper towel would not cause as much detail to be wiped out.
So I again revise my opinion ("picture vs. reality" included!) to say I would not know, leaning towards the strike through, if it was a thin or a thick object b/c hardness also has to come into play.
The person who took the photos is no fly by night eBay seller though, so at least we know that. The owner also shows typical coin photography skills for not deliberately trying to get the lighting correct to emphasize whatever details would need be to highlight pertinent details.
When you asked "why?" I was just confused b/c what you said about the pics and 2D vs. 3D was something you and I both had pointed out.
I was assuming the number of times all of that was mentioned that people were understanding that the pictures are all we have to assess, so we were taking the available data and thinking through the details/clues to figure out what the cause of that coin's appearance, in hand, would be.
Revision:
More thought (taking into account all the "picture vs. reality" above)... the thickness of an object causing a strike though and its hardness should also be determines the details that will be struck through the object into the coin. A tiny flake of very thin metal with a harness more than the nickel planchet would likely leave no details below it when pooped out. But a piece of thick (relative term) cotton cloth/paper towel would not cause as much detail to be wiped out.
So I again revise my opinion ("picture vs. reality" included!) to say I would not know, leaning towards the strike through, if it was a thin or a thick object b/c hardness also has to come into play.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
- Paul
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
I just think the planchet had the delamination before it was struck and it's not enough to effect the weight much if at all. Besides normal coins can have different weight ranges so that would not prove if it's a delamination or not because of the tolerances and allowances at the mint.
- Paul
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Re: 1940-S 5¢: "Delam" or "Struck Through"
I hear you Daniel, the image used in this post, is not sufficient enough for a proper evaluation....
Just throwing that out there as a option.
Just throwing that out there as a option.
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