1964 Transitional Variety

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Mary.Mattey
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1964 Transitional Variety

#1 Unread post by Mary.Mattey »

Hello

This weekend I bought a 1964 transitional variety Kennedy Half. I was told the reverse is the accented hair variety and the obverse is not. Can someone tell how I call find more information on this coin? Is a good find?

Thank you in advance for your help and opinion.
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Last edited by Mary.Mattey on Mon May 02, 2022 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#2 Unread post by Iceresistance »

I'm not familiar with these . . . :think:
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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#3 Unread post by Mary.Mattey »

i found a video on the accented hair variety. The reverse looks iike the accented hair

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#4 Unread post by Daniel »

You need to post better images and what video are you referring too as well?

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#5 Unread post by Mary.Mattey »

I added more pictures of the coin. I tried my best to get a good picture. It's hard because the coin is so shinny.

The front of the coin is a regular proof coin. The back of the coin is the back of the accented hair coin. The dealer explained this the Transistional variety. Punching the wrong back on a coin seems like an error not a variety but that is another discussion for another day. Here are my questions:

1. If this is a variety where do I find more information on the variety. The red book doesn't list it and I couldn't find anything on PGCS or Youtube. I would like to know what the mintage of this variety.
2. I value your opinions so I would like to know if you think I made a good purchase at the coin show. Is this a good coin to have in a collection?

I appreciate everyone's time and opinions!

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#6 Unread post by Daniel »

The problem is you’re asking questions about something and there’s no source for this variety. If it’s not listed it doesn’t exist until the experts that attribute varieties make it official and catalogue so the industry accepts it as a variety.

Also a variety is about the die pairs that struck the coin. A new die pair is technically a new variety if the die pair can be specified based on markers and an actual change to the die and it doesn’t have to be on purpose although most are.

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#7 Unread post by Mary.Mattey »

Okay - I think I understand. I need to send this coin in to be evaluated right? Send it to Mr. Wexler is that correct?

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#8 Unread post by Daniel »

It does but you still haven’t told me what YouTube video told you this existed.

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#9 Unread post by Mary.Mattey »

Hi Daniel - The dealer I bought the coin from told me this variety exists. I can't find any information about this coin. That is why I'm asking the question.

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#10 Unread post by Earle42 »

The two REVs used with the accented hair proof have to deal with the looks of the designer's initial, FG, on the REV.

One type will have a straight G and the other will have a flared G. The straight vs. flared is referring to the shape of the top of the G's upright member extending up from the end of its curve

I will check my files and get back on this.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#11 Unread post by Mary.Mattey »

Earle42 - THANK YOU!

the G on the FG on this coin is straight. the stars also look like accented hair variety. Can you tell me if the front of the coin looks like a regular proof or the accented hair variety?

I really appreciate your help!!!!

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#12 Unread post by Earle42 »

Terms used:
AH - Accented Hair OBV
NH = Normal Hair OBV
Straight G = straight end at top of G's termination point.
Flared G = flared end at top of G's termination point.


Three types of 1964 proofs exist:
1. AH proofs had the straight G REV

2. NH proofs had the flared G REV

3. Transitional: NH with straight G REV
- these are the transitional variety since it has the NH OBV< but the older AH REV
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#13 Unread post by Earle42 »

You have, as would be expected, a Normal Hair OBV on this coin. However, there is a much easier way to tell than the confusing hair design b/c a well struck normal hair can look like an accented hair!

The I in LIBERTY is the clue - see the following composite graphic I just made:
Click to enlarge.
Click to enlarge.
I also have never seen a reference to the sideburns before - this is my own I have noticed. I am not sure it holds for all of them, but should unless die polishing removed it.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#14 Unread post by Mary.Mattey »

Thank you Earle42 for taking the time to research this for me. The diagram really helps. I did buy the transitional variety (NH with straight G reverse). I just love my coin!!!

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#15 Unread post by Mary.Mattey »

One last question. Where do I find the FS number for this Variety? I would like to look at the population of this coin. Thank you1

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#16 Unread post by Earle42 »

Admittedly I do not know. I do not know if this variety is well enough known yet. I would be interested to know its relative rarity as well.

Maybe Conceca?
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#17 Unread post by Paul »

May I see a close-up image of the "I" in Liberty please :?:
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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#18 Unread post by Mary.Mattey »

@ Paul - These are the best pictures I could get because the coin is so shinny.
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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#19 Unread post by Earle42 »

These pics show the serifs on the I are on both sides, hence a normal hair variety. The FG does not show up well enough in your pictures to tell which one it is.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#20 Unread post by Mary.Mattey »

Hi Earle42 -Here are better pictures of the back of the coin.
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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#21 Unread post by Earle42 »

It gets fuzzy when I zoom, but it does look like the straight FG and therefore the Transistional variety :thumbsup:
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#22 Unread post by Mary.Mattey »

@ Earle42 - How do I find out the population of this coin? I am CONSIDERING getting my coin slabbed. Do I need to send this coin to Mr. Wexler before sending to a grading company? Do you have a preference in grading companies?

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#23 Unread post by Earle42 »

I do not know if there is enough data on these known. Its mainly a Kennedy Specialist who would know about these at present. I do not know when they were discovered, but at present, most of the hobby is unaware there are two different types of REV on Kennedy Halves with a straight G or flared G (these occur on a few other years as well).

OK - slabbing in general. Sorry the following essay is long, but it is what I am beginning to call my "Insider's Guide to Grading Companies." You will find your answers there plus more info essential to understanding what you asked about slabbing. I suspect you would simply get a graded coin back, have paid way too much for it, and no explanation as to why they did what they did:

***
Here is a reality check about grading companies vs. what people coming into the hobby just assume about them b/c of seeing so many slabbed coins being sold. Reading this will help you make better educated decisions concerning these companies and your hard earned cash.😊:

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Here is some beginners fishing tackle. Its worth your time to read.

Thinking of Slabbing? Make sure you understand the Facts...or You Could Lose Money.


Popular mistaken mindset:
1. The grading companies are not a way that the majority of people, even those with a great deal of experience who know what they are doing, are going to be able to use in order to make huge personal profits. Many people start using grading companies thinking they will find a way to finance their hobby, but they learn a hard lesson quickly.

Professional predicting not possible:
2. Watch some of Daniel's videos where he gets slabbed coins back from the grading companies. Note even people who live, eat, breath, and deal coins for a living (like Daniel) can accurately predict what grade the companies will give. And...the "fault" (not really a fault) is in a widespread mistaken perception people get from being exposed to all the slabs being sold nowadays:

a. Coin grading companies are a business out to make a profit - this is why they exist. They use a system where allegedly three, but in reality its normally two, graders look at each coin and give an opinion. The company videos showing the process make you believe this is a relaxed and paced process of studying each coin. In fact one PCGS video shows a number of guys sitting around a table discussing what they think a specific coin should be graded as (on youtube somewhere - sorry no link). Uh uh.

b. If you take a PCGS graded coin slabbed as MS64, break it out, and resubmit it to PCGS, you are never guaranteed the same grade again. The slabbed coin might come back MS62 (extreme and a bad day for graders), 63, 64, 65, 66 (extreme and a great day for you!). This is b/c the process is all subjective: No scientific/verifiable standards or methods are used. This subjectivity makes for greater company profits since people resubmit the same coin trying to get a higher (better price when selling) grade. In the 90s the companies, at great expense, created better (their own words) scientific methods not relying upon human opinion. No doubt the large profit from the re-slabbing game fell. The companies abandoned the science and went back to their less accurate systems.

But..this is all hearsay without proof. So...
Grading the Coin Graders

Here is another good read from someone there at the start of the grading companies:
Hobby negative impacts from slabbing companies

Error on errors:
3. People also seem to think grading companies will examine a coin to see if they can find an error and then slab it as such. But again, they ONLY GRADE coins. The companies will NOT try to find and ID an error for you. You must FIRST ID the error yourself, CHECK to see if the company you want to use recognizes that specific error, PAY them to verify the error on the label, and then you may or may not actually get what you pay for! The companies have a bad reputation for attributing errors incorrectly.

Link to and read (download if you want it) the pdf link in my signature as an eye opening example. Sadly, the verifiable data presented from the PCGS website shows trusting people have spent thousands of dollars on many slabbed coins that are not what the companies claims/slabbed the coins to be.

Cost concerns:
4. B/c people do not understand the businesses, so very many people end up with spending far more money to slab a coin than the coin is worth. The companies profit greatly with membership fees, submission fees, insurance fees, shipping fees and extra (chosen) fees. ANACs does not have all these fees though.


You don't have to throw in the towel over these companies...but education about the reality of them will put you on the right pathway to dealing with them in a legit way without losing money in the process.


And…if you just like to collect slabbed coins for what they are, which makes losing/making money from slabs irrelevant, then of course enjoy them!" 😊
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#24 Unread post by Daniel »

I think everyone is confusing this, the OP isn't asking if this coin is the Accented Hair on the obverse, they're asking if the obverse is a normal 1964 but that the reverse is the same as an accented hair. I've never heard of this before, so I can't comment. Correct me if I am wrong but that is how I am reading this.

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#25 Unread post by Mary.Mattey »

Oh Daniel - now I'm really confused.

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#26 Unread post by Daniel »

Maybe I am mistaken with what you're asking.

I can tell you this, the coin you posted here isn't an Accented Hair, transitional Kennedy half Dollar. The obverse must match and examples of this where posted. So the seller of this coin was mistaken. The obverse here is more important than the reverse for the accented hair and you didn't post a good image of the obverse.

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#27 Unread post by Mary.Mattey »

The dealer I bought the coin from told me the front of the coin is the not accented hair. The back of the coin is the accented hair variety. I am going to send the coin to Mr. Wexler for review. I so appreciate everyone's feedback. I will let you know what I find out about this coin. THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU for your help!!!

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#28 Unread post by Daniel »

And that is what I said but you said you was confused, so I was correct about what you're asking. You should have just sent it to Wexler if that was your goal all along. It's less confusing.

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#29 Unread post by Mary.Mattey »

Daniel - I so appreciate everything you and the people in this forum have done to help me! I am so new to coin collecting that the process and verbiage gets overwhelming at times. I am trying. I have watched hours of videos, read the red book, reached out to knowledgeable people like yourself. I honestly never meant any disrespect. I don't know what to do with the coin because I can't find any information. I REALLY appreciate your insight so Thank you for all your help.

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#30 Unread post by Earle42 »

Mary.Mattey wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 5:41 pm Oh Daniel - now I'm really confused.
Mary, there is no reason to be confused. This normal hair with accented hair REV is not a well known variety even among some Kennedy collectors. You have to be a nut like me to know much about it. Here is my background with Kennedy halves to give you an idea of how certain I am about the half in question:

I have spent hours on PCGS looking at slabbed Kennedy halves trying to find ratios (to determine rarity) of various varieties that have been slabbed. Although I also admit I had not yet looked at the ratio of your coin variety but it was on the list of things to do - which is why I could find the info I already shared about it in my notes. I also have to research with the other fours dates known to have two different FG styles of straight or flared.

My Kennedy collection is extreme in that after I got (all but a couple) of each date and MM, I had to find more to collect. So I got one of each "good" (defined as easily seen, or non-micro) doubled die, the triple and quad die 1964s (mixed with types of these also RPMs), RPMs from all the other dates, the No FG (and alleged No FG s- having done a lot of research and wrote an essay on these No FGs that I have not seen published anywhere else), known clashed dates, and then looked for more to collect!

So I added all of special issues (REV roofs, 1998 SMS, all the other enhanced and 2014 varieties etc.), all of the clad matte finish proofs, and then went on to even get one of each of the Daniel Carr overstrikes!

What am I missing (besides the AH and this transitional one like yours)?

The really hard ones to get are the rotated dies - though I have a list of known dates, I have never seen one. The 1971 Kennedy struck on a quarter planchet also is elusive to me. Although I have seen slabbed pics of two of them wan another Kennedy specialist (on another forum) found them together in a roll!

The upside down S mint mark proof 1968 is very hard to find. I will never have the 1977 silver - just too rare. And it seems they no longer make a big deal about the 2018 REV proof that had a very weak frosting on the entire REV as opposed to the regular frosting. Enough were found it made a splash on ebay at one time.

I unofficially stopped the set in 2015, so am short some of the newer proofs as well...just b/c I have been too busy to get them.

Sorry, I got going and kept typing! But anyway...If your half dollar matches the info I have in the graphic I sent originally (like you said it does), you have what we were talking about.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#31 Unread post by Mary.Mattey »

Earle42 - I am beyond impressed! I hope to someday have enough expertise to recognize a DDO. :) I am working very hard to increase my knowledge base. Can you please answer a few beginner questions for me?

1. Are rotated die coins the coins you flip over, and the front and back are not straight?
2. I am considering getting my coin slabbed but was told that I need a letter from Mr. Wexler to send to the grading companies. If I don't have a letter the grading companies will not recognize the variety. Is this true?

Thanks again for your help!

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#32 Unread post by Earle42 »

Mary.Mattey wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:41 am Earle42 - I am beyond impressed! I hope to someday have enough expertise to recognize a DDO. :) I am working very hard to increase my knowledge base. Can you please answer a few beginner questions for me?
1. Are rotated die coins the coins you flip over, and the front and back are not straight?
2. I am considering getting my coin slabbed but was told that I need a letter from Mr. Wexler to send to the grading companies. If I don't have a letter the grading companies will not recognize the variety. Is this true?

Thanks again for your help!
While I am a Kennedy specialist (and some other series as well), there is a LOT I do not know about many other series. For example, Daniel may shudder at the following fact, but I have to look up which Morgans are the key dates/MMs when I want to reference this :lol:

Numbered answers:
1. Rotated die coins:
Rotated_Die.jpg
2. I posted further above concerning the reality of what grading companies do. One of the points mentions how they handle varities and slabbing them. Make sure to read the point labeled as "Error on Errors" to understand how the companies handle labeling varieties.
I personally do not know if PCGS, NGA, or ANACS even will recognize this Transitional variety or not. I also admit I do not know how to find out if they recognize this variety, but that info likely would be someplace on their website(?). I do not know of anyplace where this variety has an officially assigned "number," but have never looked for it either b.c I have had no reason to.

Since I posted the long essay about the reality of grading companies, I think you likely have considered the costs to get this slabbed will likely be a lot more than the coin's value if using PCGS or NGC. But I also understand someone just liking slabbed coins to collect.

Maybe Daniel will know if there is a way to have a company label a slab with a variety they do not know of/recognize??



BTW - if you read the essay in my signature, you will find one reason why I personally don't find grading companies reputable compared to what the masses have just assumed them to be. However, if I was buying and selling coins like Daniel and other dealers, then obviously I would use slabbing companies b/c a lot of buyers "feel better" when buying slabbed coins, and so slabs bring a higher selling price than a raw coin.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#33 Unread post by Mary.Mattey »

This is very helpful. Thank you!

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#34 Unread post by gsp193 »

Also the rays will be broken above the Eagles right shoulder at the stars ...Looking at what I can see on your's the ray looks to be broken as well. The G will be a straight G resembling more of a U shape instead of the bottom being flared out to the right just a bit. I have three of the transitional non-accented hair varieties along with an accented hair variety and thats what I see between them. Hope that helps a little

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#35 Unread post by gsp193 »

I just found where there 3 more pages to this thread so I probably just added something that was already posted previously! My apology if so, learning to navigate here!

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#36 Unread post by Earle42 »

Yes, that info was in the graphic on the second page. But that's OK...if someone missed it on the graphic, your post made a way to have them double check it :D
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 1964 Transitional Variety

#37 Unread post by gsp193 »

Thanks Earle42!

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