1934 50c MS62, What makes this a MS 62 and not say a MS 64?

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Audigy
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1934 50c MS62, What makes this a MS 62 and not say a MS 64?

#1 Unread post by Audigy »

So I bought a couple of Walking Liberty's last week. ( Sorry Daniel ones you had I wanted was already sold :( )

I'm still learning how to grade the walking liberty's and I did get a MS 1934 50c MS62, I got a good deal. But if its possible to tell what made it a 62 vrs a 64 ? the luster and toning on the side ? I know company's are subjected and there no science being there grading system but something should have influenced there decision.

I suspect who ever submitted it expected a higher grade and even got the gold shield and was disappointed. Their lost is my gain lol.
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Re: 1934 50c MS62, What makes this a MS 62 and not say a MS 64?

#2 Unread post by Daniel »

MS62 has more contact marks and it’s also opinion. Grading is too subjective for such an answer.

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Re: 1934 50c MS62, What makes this a MS 62 and not say a MS 64?

#3 Unread post by Earle42 »

Unfortunately there is no answer to what you ask. You have already said you know they use nothing verifiable and this is yet another example of that fact.

The graders that day thought it should be an MS62 b/c...well...they thought it should be MS62. You cannot make a dividing line when there is no dividing line.

Even looking at their definitions of what MS62 means VS MS64, you end up with vague descriptions you could apply to various coins that when side by side are very different looking:

Both of the following were seen by a minimum of two graders the day the coins were submitted. Allegedly the two graders were seeing the coins independent from one another and did not know each other's grades they assigned.
Click to enlarge.
Click to enlarge.
These two coins ARE what PCGS sees as F15 depending on how good the coffee was in the office on that day the coins were graded.

Overall of course, due to mathematical probability and averages, if hundreds of MS62 slabs were side by side, there would be a "fuzzy cloud" found of generally what a human might see as being an MS62. The more MS62s scanned, the closer to an idea of what the collective of human minds sees as MS62 . This is what Daniel's AI system is all about.

But when a company slaps any grade on a label (remember they call grading an art), there is no "right" or "wrong," b/c they don't use any verifiable standard.

The human mind seems to have a NEED for accountability and verifiable legitimacy when relying upon "experts." The companies also know this and end up making a lot of money b/c of this basic human need. The companies know the general populous will want so badly for slabs to be legitimately standardized that people will continue to keep convincing themselves there is an actual and definable difference between each and every MS (etc.) grade point.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1934 50c MS62, What makes this a MS 62 and not say a MS 64?

#4 Unread post by Audigy »

Thanks I do see a few hairline scratches but highly magnified. I only paid $115 total for the coin. For a 62 not a bad deal

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Re: 1934 50c MS62, What makes this a MS 62 and not say a MS 64?

#5 Unread post by Earle42 »

Something else you might like to know ( a bit of repetition, but most is not):

If you enjoy losing money, skip reading the following essay :D

The Insider's Guide to Using Grading Companies
-or-
Thinking of Slabbing? Make sure you understand the Facts...or You Could Lose Money.

Popular mistaken mindset:
1. The grading companies are not a method/way that the majority of people, even those with a great deal of experience who know what they are doing, are going to be able to use in order to make huge personal profits. Many people start using grading companies thinking they will find a way to finance their hobby, but they learn a hard lesson quickly.

In general, the coin you have found in circulation is NOT going to make huge profits if slabbed. Way too many people pad the pockets of the companies and get nothing in return b/c they THINK (youtube videos!) they have something rare.

Professional predicting not possible:
2. Watch some of Daniel's videos where he gets slabbed coins back from the grading companies. Note even people who live, eat, breath, and deal coins for a living (like Daniel) can accurately predict what grade the companies will give. And...the "fault" (not really a fault) is in a widespread mistaken perception people get from being exposed to all the slabs being sold nowadays:

a. Coin grading companies are a business out to make a profit - this is why they exist. They use a system where allegedly three, but in reality its normally two, graders look at each coin and give an opinion. The company videos showing the process make you believe this is a relaxed and paced process of studying each coin. In fact one PCGS video shows a number of guys sitting around a table discussing what they think a specific coin should be graded as (on youtube somewhere - sorry no link). Uh uh.

b. If you take a PCGS graded coin slabbed as MS64, break it out, and resubmit it to PCGS, you are never guaranteed the same grade again. The slabbed coin might come back MS62 (extreme and a bad day for graders), 63, 64, 65, 66 (extreme and a great day for you!). This is b/c the process is all subjective: No scientific/verifiable standards or methods are used. This subjectivity makes for greater company profits since people resubmit the same coin trying to get a higher (better price when selling) grade. In the 90s the companies, at great expense, created better (their own words) scientific methods not relying upon human opinion. No doubt the large profit from the re-slabbing game fell. The companies abandoned the science and went back to their less accurate systems.

c. It needs be mentioned that the fewer the "money grade" slabs a company assigns, the more prices of said slabs climbs. Thus more business is generated b/c more people pay to slab coins hoping to get that "money grade" slab. And the companies do keep records (accessible online) of how many of the higher graded slabs exist for each coin. While the idea of keeping money grade slabs minimized is speculative, there has been some convincing evidence of this being reality.

But..this is all hearsay without proof. So...
Grading the Coin Graders

Here is another good read from someone there at the start of the grading companies:
Hobby negative impacts from slabbing companies

Error on errors:
3. People also seem to think grading companies will examine a coin to see if they can find an error and then slab it as such. But again, they ONLY GRADE coins. The companies will NOT try to find and ID an error for you. You must FIRST ID the error yourself, CHECK to see if the company you want to use recognizes that specific error, PAY them to verify the error on the label, and then you may or may not actually get what you pay for! The companies have a bad reputation for attributing errors incorrectly.

Link to and read (download if you want it) the pdf link in my signature as an eye opening example. Sadly, the verifiable data presented from the PCGS website shows trusting people have spent thousands of dollars on many slabbed coins that are not what the companies claims/slabbed the coins to be.

Cost concerns:
4. B/c people do not understand the businesses, so very many people end up with spending far more money to slab a coin than the coin is worth. The companies profit greatly with membership fees, submission fees, insurance fees, priority shipping fees and extra (chosen) fees. When you do the math for all of these fees you are approaching $150-200.00 for a slabbed coin the very first time you submit. ANACs does not have all these fees though.


You don't have to throw in the towel over these companies...but education about the reality of them will put you on the right pathway to dealing with them in a legit way without losing money in the process.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1934 50c MS62, What makes this a MS 62 and not say a MS 64?

#6 Unread post by Audigy »

Earle42 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:45 pm
If you enjoy losing money, skip reading the following essay :D
I wouldn't be a coin collector if I wasn't.....

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Re: 1934 50c MS62, What makes this a MS 62 and not say a MS 64?

#7 Unread post by Mrweaseluv »

Got a real straight forward and simple answer for you .. Those great big carbon spots on the right side of the obverse... Now it is possible you could have it conserved/dipped and those spots "might" be cleared away to allow it a higher grade... then again it might not remove the spots and end up with an even lower grade then you have now... As always... buy the coin... NOT the plastic/grade :D I just won a coin this week that I am having that very same issue with... The problem being I think mine may already have been through conservation to remove the carbon but was not 100% successful, but I am considering sending her in with a few others next month for conservation and regrading... I'm 99% positive the other 3 morgans and a 93 barber quarter will benefit from such treatment... Your's I think is a great candidate for this process. I do not think it has been conserved and could very well improve in grade... Mine, I'm not so sure... as I think the spots remaining are just that... spots a conservation couldn't clear...
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Re: 1934 50c MS62, What makes this a MS 62 and not say a MS 64?

#8 Unread post by Audigy »

Mrweaseluv wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:25 pm Got a real straight forward and simple answer for you .. Those great big carbon spots on the right side of the obverse... Now it is possible you could have it conserved/dipped and those spots "might" be cleared away to allow it a higher grade... then again it might not remove the spots and end up with an even lower grade then you have now... As always... buy the coin... NOT the plastic/grade :D I just won a coin this week that I am having that very same issue with... The problem being I think mine may already have been through conservation to remove the carbon but was not 100% successful, but I am considering sending her in with a few others next month for conservation and regrading... I'm 99% positive the other 3 morgans and a 93 barber quarter will benefit from such treatment... Your's I think is a great candidate for this process. I do not think it has been conserved and could very well improve in grade... Mine, I'm not so sure... as I think the spots remaining are just that... spots a conservation couldn't clear...
1903f.jpg1903fr.jpg
Thanks, that’s good to know. I don’t have any plans cranking out the coin and dipping. Going to leave it as is. But it’s good Info to know case I see a coin with spots give it a 2nd thought. Like I said I pay 62 price so I wasn’t worried about a bad deal.

I kinda gotten good at spotting Morgan grades walking liberty are still new to me thanks again.

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Re: 1934 50c MS62, What makes this a MS 62 and not say a MS 64?

#9 Unread post by Earle42 »

Audigy wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:15 pm
Earle42 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:45 pm
If you enjoy losing money, skip reading the following essay :D
I wouldn't be a coin collector if I wasn't.....
:lol: :lol:
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1934 50c MS62, What makes this a MS 62 and not say a MS 64?

#10 Unread post by Daniel »

The toning on the right side of the rims isn’t why it didn’t grade higher. I handle thousands of graded coins a year and it is the amount of contact marks and a graders opinion on why a coin obtains a grade.

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