Indian head with e pluribus unum under the chin

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nabors165
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Indian head with e pluribus unum under the chin

#1 Unread post by nabors165 »

I have a ?1934 Indian head nickel with the backwards upside down e pluribus unum under the indians chin! Seems to be directly behind the words from the back. Also some rim action going on front and back. Is the rim die damage and the words somehow pressed through? Any help with this coin, value anything. Thanks
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Re: Indian head with e pluribus unum under the chin

#2 Unread post by Earle42 »

I flipped the picture of the closeup of the chin upside down and can see the UNU of UNUm.
Click to enlarge.  Save for reference.  Feel free to share.
Click to enlarge. Save for reference. Feel free to share.

However, since the letters are backwards, as shown, they were impressed onto the coin from another one. This is not a mint error or the UNUM would be correctly oriented.



This is likely an old "vise coin."
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Click to enlarge. Save for reference. Feel free to share.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: Indian head with e pluribus unum under the chin

#3 Unread post by Paul »

Lee,
I think you're stretching it a bit here, this looks like damage and pareidolia to me....JMO
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Re: Indian head with e pluribus unum under the chin

#4 Unread post by Earle42 »

I thought pareidolia at first as well Paul, but I flipped the picture upside down, and then I enlarged it. On my large screen I was actually surprised to see the UNU clearly. After I saw that is when I matched up the letters with a font and wrote UNU backwards above it so people would not think I was crazy (failed at that I guess :lol: ).
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: Indian head with e pluribus unum under the chin

#5 Unread post by Earle42 »

Flipped again to show the lettering:
Click to enlarge.  Save for reference.  Feel free to share.
Click to enlarge. Save for reference. Feel free to share.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: Indian head with e pluribus unum under the chin

#6 Unread post by Paul »

I know you're not crazy....... your mother had you tested
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Re: Indian head with e pluribus unum under the chin

#7 Unread post by Earle42 »

Shhh...those guys in white jackets will be after me again if you bring that up! :laughing-rolling:
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Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: Indian head with e pluribus unum under the chin

#8 Unread post by nabors165 »

If it was pressed on from another coin, it would not be backwards and upsidedown! If one was to think about the orientation of another coin the imprint would be also on the raised surface of the indians chin and neck. Not in the background. I know people get their hopes up and others are just a little quick to give an a plausible explanation, possibly a little too quick without thinking about orientation and other factors. I may have to have this one graded, just to satisfy my curiosity! Consider where the placement of the words e pluribus unum on the back of the coin are.

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Re: Indian head with e pluribus unum under the chin

#9 Unread post by SensibleSal66 »

nabors165 wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:22 am If it was pressed on from another coin, it would not be backwards and upsidedown! If one was to think about the orientation of another coin the imprint would be also on the raised surface of the indians chin and neck. Not in the background. I know people get their hopes up and others are just a little quick to give an a plausible explanation, possibly a little too quick without thinking about orientation and other factors. I may have to have this one graded, just to satisfy my curiosity! Consider where the placement of the words e pluribus unum on the back of the coin are.
You would be wasting money if you have this "Damaged" coin sibmitted for grading. :snooty:
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Re: Indian head with e pluribus unum under the chin

#10 Unread post by Daniel »

You’re ignoring all the damage to this coin, anything could have happened to your coin. However what your asking about didn’t happen at the mint.

You’re also assuming we’re jumping to incorrect conclusions and not considering orientations, but that IS what we do. I do. The area you think is UNUM is too large, it would have to be the same size as the normal unum. Same shape too.

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Re: Indian head with e pluribus unum under the chin

#11 Unread post by Earle42 »

1.
nabors165 wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:22 am I know people get their hopes up and others are just a little quick to give an a plausible explanation, possibly a little too quick without thinking about orientation and other factors.
Just a thought here from my graphics I posted. I hope it is obvious I did take orientation into account or I would not have taken your original picture and flipped it upside down (and then horizontally) to make the UNU match what is on the coin. I was not quick with this, obviously, since I took the time to analyze it, crop your graphic, orient it to match up so I could type the UNU backwards, posted it this way, and then went back and correctly oriented it for another graphic.

2.
I may have to have this one graded, just to satisfy my curiosity! Consider where the placement of the words e pluribus unum on the back of the coin are.
A lot of people learn the hard, and expensive way, that you cannot learn anything about an error coin by sending it in. The companies do NOT automatically identify a coin error, ad label the slab, for you. They only GRADE a coin unless paid and asked to do otherwise. Read the following for an error coins it is even more complex than that!

If you enjoy losing money, skip reading the following essay :D

The Insider's Guide to Using Grading Companies
-or-
Thinking of Slabbing? Make sure you understand the Facts...or You Could Lose Money.

Popular mistaken mindset:
1. The grading companies are not a method/way that the majority of people, even those with a great deal of experience who know what they are doing, are going to be able to use in order to make huge personal profits. Many people start using grading companies thinking they will find a way to finance their hobby, but they learn a hard lesson quickly.

In general, the coin you have found in circulation is NOT going to make huge profits if slabbed. Way too many people pad the pockets of the companies and get nothing in return b/c they THINK (youtube videos!) they have something rare.

Professional predicting not possible:
2. Watch some of Daniel's videos where he gets slabbed coins back from the grading companies. Note even people who live, eat, breath, and deal coins for a living (like Daniel) can accurately predict what grade the companies will give. And...the "fault" (not really a fault) is in a widespread mistaken perception people get from being exposed to all the slabs being sold nowadays:

a. Coin grading companies are a business out to make a profit - this is why they exist. They use a system where allegedly three, but in reality it's normally two, graders look at each coin and give an opinion. The company videos showing the process make you believe this is a relaxed and paced process of studying each coin. In fact one PCGS video shows a number of guys sitting around a table discussing what they think a specific coin should be graded as (on youtube somewhere - sorry no link). Uh uh.

b. If you take a PCGS graded coin slabbed as MS64, break it out, and resubmit it to PCGS, you are never guaranteed the same grade again. The slabbed coin might come back MS62 (extreme and a bad day for graders), 63, 64, 65, 66 (extreme and a great day for you!). This is b/c the process is all subjective: No scientific/verifiable standards or methods are used. This subjectivity makes for greater company profits since people resubmit the same coin trying to get a higher (better price when selling) grade. In the 90s the companies, at great expense, created better (their own words) scientific methods not relying upon human opinion. No doubt the large profit from the re-slabbing game fell. The companies abandoned the science and went back to their less accurate systems.

c. It needs be mentioned that the fewer the "money grade" slabs a company assigns, the more prices of said slabs climbs. Thus more business is generated b/c more people pay to slab coins hoping to get that "money grade" slab. And the companies do keep records (accessible online) of how many of the higher graded slabs exist for each coin. While the idea of keeping money grade slabs minimized is speculative, there has been some convincing evidence of this being reality.

But..this is all hearsay without proof. So...
Grading the Coin Graders

Here is another good read from someone there at the start of the grading companies:
Hobby negative impacts from slabbing companies

Error on errors:
3. People also seem to think grading companies will examine a coin to see if they can find an error and then slab it as such. But again, they ONLY GRADE coins. The companies will NOT try to find and ID an error for you. You must FIRST ID the error yourself, CHECK to see if the company you want to use recognizes that specific error, PAY them to verify the error on the label, and then you may or may not actually get what you pay for! The companies have a bad reputation for attributing errors incorrectly.

Link to and read (download if you want it) the pdf link in my signature as an eye opening example. Sadly, the verifiable data presented from the PCGS website shows trusting people have spent thousands of dollars on many slabbed coins that are not what the companies claims/slabbed the coins to be.

Cost concerns:
4. B/c people do not understand the businesses, so very many people end up with spending far more money to slab a coin than the coin is worth. The companies profit greatly with membership fees, submission fees, insurance fees, priority shipping fees and extra (chosen) fees. When you do the math for all of these fees you are approaching $150-200.00 for a slabbed coin the very first time you submit. ANACs does not have all these fees though.


You don't have to throw in the towel over these companies...but education about the reality of them will put you on the right pathway to dealing with them in a legit way without losing money in the process.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: Indian head with e pluribus unum under the chin

#12 Unread post by nabors165 »

Thanks, I understand much more than I did. Sorry for my ignorance!
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