1921 S Morgan Dollar

[Darcy]

I have been staring at the PCGS grading standards, I've watched Daniel's video on Morgans, and I looked on Herritage.  Shooting in the dark, but I think the attached photo should be rated a MS/PR-63.

My analysis:

The hair is not worn, and the curl on the forehead is visible.
Liberty in the headdress is distinct.
Minimal scratching in the body of the coin.
The lettering is not worn, but the edging around the edge is worn.  I think it was stamped a little off center.
The nose hook is worn.
The eyebrow is worn.
The reverse is a little worn with a mintmark of S.

What do you guys think?

There are a wide range of values on the internet.  Ebay has them starting at $55 up to $400, and ha.com starts at $166 on up.

Thanks for your insight.

Darcy
PS Somehow the pics got rotated.... Sorry.

[Darcy]

Looking at Daniel's site I would have to downgrade myself. It might be closer to AU55......

[Kenzo]

There is a nice coin under all of the staining. It's hard to tell from the pics. Was it damaged in a fire? Have you tried soaking in acetone?

You mentioned Ebay prices. Eye appeal alone puts it at the bottom of the scale.

Cheers,
Kenny

[Marvic]

A Mint State coin should shows No Wear.
You say this Morgan 1921-S should be "MS-63"
But then you wrote in your post "Nose, Eyebrow and a little on the reverse is: Worn??

[Daniel]

Why did you say PR63? Do you know what makes a coin a proof or is this a typo?

[JTCC]

Looking at Daniel's site I would have to downgrade myself. It might be closer to AU55......

I agree.

[Darcy]

Kenzo, I inherited this coin, but I never heard of any fires in my family history. I've been tip toeing around washing anything, but I will go buy some acetone today.

Marvic, you're right. I posted how I analyzed the coin so you guys could correct me.

Daniel, I was comparing the photos on PCGS and HA, but clearly Google has been a better friend to me today...... Thanks for questioning my illogical guess.

Thanks guys!

[Earle42]

Kenzo, I inherited this coin, but I never heard of any fires in my family history. I've been tip toeing around washing anything, but I will go buy some acetone today.[/qoute]
Everything you need to know about coin conservation:

https://coinauctionshelp.com/forum/view ... hp?t=20498

[Darcy]

Earle42, thanks for the link. I hope you don't mind more questions.....

I put the coins in acetone. They all improved, but I might have to buy some E-Z-Est, but before I do, what do you think of putting acetone in a vibrating jewelry cleaner to motivate the grime to get off the surface?

Is there a time limit to leaving the coins in acetone?

Thx.

[Earle42]

Personally I have never tried a vibrator. I would think if the coin was in contact with the surface of the container in any way that the vibration would be similar to rubbing the coin and wear away/mar at the surface.

Acetone
Forgive the book I will write, but it will explain to you what you need to know fully about acetone and coins:

Is there a time limit to leave it in the acetone?

No...but do not let the bath the coin is in totally evaporate before the coin is removed and re-deposit the gunk back onto the coin. The gunk when re-deposited can become impervious to being dissolved again.

I use about an inch of acetone. I use a sealed baby food jar so there is very little evaporation. You cannot leave a coin in acetone too long. The metal cannot be changed in any way by the acetone.

So just let the coin soak in acetone and let the acetone do its thing. How long? Generally it only takes less than a minute to do its job on a typically circulated coin with gunk on it.

Xylene

OK...next step if acetone does not remove everything: Xylene.

Make sure the acetone is totally off of the surface of the coin - which takes little time b/c acetone will TOTALLY evaporate off of the coin at room temperature. It's boiling point is so low it cannot exist on the coin at room temperatures (this is why it also feels cold to the touch).

Xylene (Walmart paint department) is also a solvent that cannot possibly interact with the metal of the coin. Xylene can remove some substances acetone cannot. I left a coin in a sealed baby food jar half filled with xylene for a couple of months just so I could tell people the xylene did not do anything to the coin itself.

After Xylene I rinse in water thoroughly (b/c xylene smells!) and PAT the coin dry with a cotton cloth.

E-Z-Est:
If you want to try using this, you need to make sure you practice with some junk silver. Watch Daniel's video on it. You will ruin your coin if you do not.

The key to using it is being able to get an understanding of how ling to leave the chemical on the coin before rinsing it totally off. Some people even dilute the E-Z-Est with water.


Grading:
Please make sure to understand the following before making a decision about using a grading company:

If you enjoy losing money, skip reading the following essay

The Insider's Guide to Using Grading Companies
-or-
Thinking of Slabbing? Make sure you understand the Facts...or You Could Lose Money.

Popular mistaken mindset:
1. The grading companies are not a method/way that the majority of people, even those with a great deal of experience who know what they are doing, are going to be able to use in order to make huge personal profits. Many people start using grading companies thinking they will find a way to finance their hobby, but they learn a hard lesson quickly.

In general, the coin you have found in circulation is NOT going to make huge profits if slabbed. Way too many people pad the pockets of the companies and get nothing in return b/c they THINK (youtube videos!) they have something rare.

Professional predicting not possible:
2. Watch some of Daniel's videos where he gets slabbed coins back from the grading companies. Note even people who live, eat, breath, and deal coins for a living (like Daniel) can accurately predict what grade the companies will give. And...the "fault" (not really a fault) is in a widespread mistaken perception people get from being exposed to all the slabs being sold nowadays:

a. Coin grading companies are a business out to make a profit - this is why they exist. They use a system where allegedly three, but in reality its normally two, graders look at each coin and give an opinion. The company videos showing the process make you believe this is a relaxed and paced process of studying each coin. In fact one PCGS video shows a number of guys sitting around a table discussing what they think a specific coin should be graded as (on youtube somewhere - sorry no link). Uh uh.

b. If you take a PCGS graded coin slabbed as MS64, break it out, and resubmit it to PCGS, you are never guaranteed the same grade again. The slabbed coin might come back MS62 (extreme and a bad day for graders), 63, 64, 65, 66 (extreme and a great day for you!). This is b/c the process is all subjective: No scientific/verifiable standards or methods are used. This subjectivity makes for greater company profits since people resubmit the same coin trying to get a higher (better price when selling) grade. In the 90s the companies, at great expense, created better (their own words) scientific methods not relying upon human opinion. No doubt the large profit from the re-slabbing game fell. The companies abandoned the science and went back to their less accurate systems.

c. It needs be mentioned that the fewer the "money grade" slabs a company assigns, the more prices of said slabs climbs. Thus more business is generated b/c more people pay to slab coins hoping to get that "money grade" slab. And the companies do keep records (accessible online) of how many of the higher graded slabs exist for each coin. While the idea of keeping money grade slabs minimized is speculative, there has been some convincing evidence of this being reality.

But..this is all hearsay without proof. So...
Grading the Coin Graders

Here is another good read from someone there at the start of the grading companies:
Hobby negative impacts from slabbing companies

Error on errors:
3. People also seem to think grading companies will examine a coin to see if they can find an error and then slab it as such. But again, they ONLY GRADE coins. The companies will NOT try to find and ID an error for you. You must FIRST ID the error yourself, CHECK to see if the company you want to use recognizes that specific error, PAY them to verify the error on the label, and then you may or may not actually get what you pay for! The companies have a bad reputation for attributing errors incorrectly.

Link to and read (download if you want it) the pdf link in my signature as an eye opening example. Sadly, the verifiable data presented from the PCGS website shows trusting people have spent thousands of dollars on many slabbed coins that are not what the companies claims/slabbed the coins to be.

Cost concerns:
4. B/c people do not understand the businesses, so very many people end up with spending far more money to slab a coin than the coin is worth. The companies profit greatly with membership fees, submission fees, insurance fees, priority shipping fees and extra (chosen) fees. When you do the math for all of these fees you are approaching $150-200.00 for a slabbed coin the very first time you submit. ANACs does not have all these fees though.


You don't have to throw in the towel over these companies...but education about the reality of them will put you on the right pathway to dealing with them in a legit way without losing money in the process.

[Kenzo]

I'd think twice about using E-Z-Est on a coin with heavy toning or questionable surface. You may end up with a coin that's obviously cleaned/dipped. Post a pic once you think the surface is clean. There is no magic to make a coin look mint state and frosty. E-Z-Est is more for touching up a coin for haze or brightness. IMHO

Cheers,
Kenny

[Alan H]

I'll give you my three cents! PCGS gives a value of $57-60 for this coin in AU-55, but remember they're talking about one in in a slab here, which means their graders would have to agree with your assessment. I wouldn't count on that. Since yours is raw (unslabbed) it will go for less, maybe $35 or so. When checking e-Bay pricing, remember to search for sold items or ended auctions so you can see what it went for, not what someone wants for it. Big difference! I'm not a huge fan of slabbing for several reasons, all of which were well covered by Earle42. There are a few exceptions: If you've got a Morgan that you're sure is MS-63 or 64 and you think you might get a 65 or higher out of it, and the value jump is considerable, then it's probably worth doing. This applies especially to key date coins. The other exception I make is for pre 1933 gold, especially high-grade pieces, as there is so much fraud and counterfeiting out there. Those I would buy in slabs. The 1921 Morgan is probably the least popular in the series, and the eye appeal of yours is low. If you aren't a collector and just inherited it and are trying to figure out what to do with it, you can keep it to pass down or for sentimental value. I have some coins that started me out collecting. They were my mothers, and none are particularly valuable except for the memories they evoke. I wouldn't sell them for that reason. YMMV!

Regards,

Alan

[Paul]

"Personally I have never tried a vibrator. I would think if the coin was in contact with the surface of the container in any way that the vibration would be similar to rubbing the coin and wear away/mar at the surface."

I believe the OP was talking about a "Ultrasonic" cleaning machine?
If so, there will be no more wear imparted to the coin surface….Although, you may find that the areas under the removed crud, will be much brighter.

[Darcy]

You guys are awesome!

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Darcy