👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#11 Unread post by Justice41ca »

Paul wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:30 pm I agree, I'm just referencing what the TPG's are going to give you for a label.....

Because if "They" didn't do it, it's considered.........

As a collector, I want the coin in its natural state,… Even if it is stained or dirty
What does TPG stand for? It is not listed on my site I go to for acronyms: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/numism ... nyms.1559/
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#12 Unread post by Earle42 »

Third Party Grading service(s)

Companies that will "slab" coins.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#13 Unread post by Paul »

It's on my list of things to do....... which is very long
I know it's on a thumb drive, buried in my safe...... somewhere
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#14 Unread post by Justice41ca »

Here is the item
Attachments
Small tight places
Small tight places
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#15 Unread post by Earle42 »

What years or dominations are you looking for or any year or type?
That's the hard way to go about it and causes a lot of frustration and dead ends.

I took rolls of any denomination, sorted the coins by date, went to varietyvista, and date by date looked to see what I should be looking for.

After awhile of this my eye started to recognize real RPMs from fake things like MD. That is one of the best ways to learn.

Same with actual doubled dies.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#16 Unread post by Justice41ca »

Earle42 wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:08 pm
What years or dominations are you looking for or any year or type?
That's the hard way to go about it and causes a lot of frustration and dead ends.

I took rolls of any denomination, sorted the coins by date, went to varietyvista, and date by date looked to see what I should be looking for.

After awhile of this my eye started to recognize real RPMs from fake things like MD. That is one of the best ways to learn.

Same with actual doubled dies.
You said you were looking for RPM at least that is how I read it. I have been going to variety vista, watching the videos, error-ref and of course still referring back to my books. I am almost to the point of putting everything away and come back to it once I retire. This project has been very time consuming and I just took a 2nd job. We will see. Did you see the smallest cotton on a stick? I put a picture up. I found this in my make up supplies it works awesome on small creases without scratching. You can get on Amazon.
I wish I could learn. Everything starts to look the same I find more nothings than anything.
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#17 Unread post by Earle42 »

You said you were looking for RPM at least that is how I read it.
Yes, I can understand the confusion 😊

Sorry if I am wrong, but from your posts I am assuming English is a second language for you? Spanish is a second language for me and I can easily mistake things.

I said:
BTW - as a side note...when looking for RPMs in circulated condition...
If I had said, "I am looking for RPMs," this would mean right now I am seeking to find specific ones for my collection.

The words "when looking" make the sentence mean there are occasions when I check coins to see if there are any RPMs. I do not have a goal of any specific ones to find...its just a general search for any of them.
Did you see the smallest cotton on a stick? I put a picture up. I found this in my make up supplies it works awesome on small creases without scratching.
As long as it does not leave any marks on the coin, then this is good!
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#18 Unread post by MartinJ »

My two cents worth---All those beautiful bright white Morgan dollars you see all over have been dipped.

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#19 Unread post by Coin Mule »

MartinJ wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:45 pm My two cents worth---All those beautiful bright white Morgan dollars you see all over have been dipped.
Yeah right Bud, next you are going to tell me that many toned coins are done artificially by watching a youtube video
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 (sarc)
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#20 Unread post by Justice41ca »

Earle42 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:09 pm
You said you were looking for RPM at least that is how I read it.
Yes, I can understand the confusion 😊

Sorry if I am wrong, but from your posts I am assuming English is a second language for you? Spanish is a second language for me and I can easily mistake things.

Sorry Eric, English is my one and only language. I am dyslexic and if I don't take my time (it takes a lot of time) when writing, I destroy the English Language along with Grammer.
It is fine, sorry for those of you that have to figure out what I'm saying. I also will misunderstand if I read too fast. Not offended
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#21 Unread post by richard560729 »

I hope this comment and question is appropriate to the topic. I see that E Z Est is a dilute mixture of sulfuric acid and thiourea, a common set of ingredients in the silver cleaning market. Tarn-X is similar, for instance. In a few posts, certain kinds of dish washing liquid are also considered appropriate, likely to clean the dirt from a surface. [?] I have not seen a comment about the use of "chelating agents", for instance EDTA containing liquid soap or jewelry cleaner. I would suspect that this is inappropriate to use, also, but I thought I would ask.

As an additional question, would silver polish also be avoided. It is commonly used on silver jewelry and silverware, but may I presume that is it forbidden to use on silver coins?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#22 Unread post by Justice41ca »

richard560729 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:43 pm I hope this comment and question is appropriate to the topic. I see that E Z Est is a dilute mixture of sulfuric acid and thiourea, a common set of ingredients in the silver cleaning market. Tarn-X is similar, for instance. In a few posts, certain kinds of dish washing liquid are also considered appropriate, likely to clean the dirt from a surface. [?] I have not seen a comment about the use of "chelating agents", for instance EDTA containing liquid soap or jewelry cleaner. I would suspect that this is inappropriate to use, also, but I thought I would ask.

As an additional question, would silver polish also be avoided. It is commonly used on silver jewelry and silverware, but may I presume that is it forbidden to use on silver coins?
I am going to ask did you watch Daniels video. It is great and he explains a lot. I can't answer your other question because I seem to have trouble learning this stuff. But, some the other items you listed are abrasive and will leave marks on the coin. But don't go by me... One of the other guys will give you answers. Go watch the videos though. I think you will get a lot out of it. Thank God, I watched it before I did what some guy said on the internet said...... LOL
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#23 Unread post by Earle42 »

A mild dishwashing soap will not harm the metal, but the problem is a lot of people like to scrub the coin with is or else rub the coin to wipe it dry. That leaves marks and ruins the value.

If the original metal is unaltered (in any way at all), and the coin shows no signs of the metal being altered, then the coin is not what the hobby calls "cleaned" (loses value).

As to chelating agents, I do not know enough about them to comment and I have no experience with them on coins.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#24 Unread post by Paul »

"If the original metal is unaltered (in any way at all), and the coin shows no signs of the metal being altered, then the coin is not what the hobby calls "cleaned" (loses value)."

HUH?
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#25 Unread post by Earle42 »

A number of years ago the slabbing companies decided they would make a differentiation between "cleaning" and "conserving" a coin. They started to offer "conservation services" ($$$$$) where the company would work on the coin to try to make it look factory fresh with no physical means of telling the coin ever looked different. They called this "conserving."

Thus the word "cleaning" became to be known as a coin where you could tell something had been done to it to try to "improve" its looks. Parallel marks from rubbing, polishing, and metal color changes from removing too much metal from the surface with chemicals (making a dull and lifeless appearance vs. original luster) thereafter was differentiated as "cleaning" the coin.

By modern definition, a "conserved" coin will be graded b/c no one can tell anything has been done to it (coffee stain, tape residue, glue residue, magic marker removed etc. with no trace of action done...aka. no physical trace of the metal being altered/brushed/polishes/removed etc.). A cleaned coin (obvious alteration of metal physically or chemically) will be returned with a details grade.

So nowadays when people say, "cleaned coins lose value," they are not talking about coins the slabbing industry says are "conserved." The meaning is that if anything is done to a coin which leaves evidence the coin was altered, then the value is lowered by that alteration. "Cleaning" is not just rinsing off spilled coffee, its using a srubbing pad and polish to rub off the coffee and stain. This action removes microscopic parts of the metal as well. The result is obvious damage/scratches/alteration of luster, which are all microscopically caused by the metal itself being altered.

But, like I said above, if someone spilled coffee on their coin and immediately rinsed it off and let the coin dry...nothing at all, not even on a microscopic level, was changed or altered in the actual, original metal itself. ONLY the coffee was affected by the water removing it from the surface of the metal. The coffee and metal were never chemically one substance. They did not chemically react to change one another's composition or appearance once separated again. Rinsing off the coffee did not alter the metal chemically - and there was no (scientific definition) physical change of the metal itself. The coin is exactly as it was before the coffee was spilled.

Done properly (no toothbrush scratches etc.), there is no way anyone could ever tell the coffee was there. This is "conservation." Conserved coins are/will be graded.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#26 Unread post by Paul »

Interesting…

So what happens if I send a coin off to a well-known TPG, and they "Conserve" the coin, & return it to me 'Raw'.....
& as soon as I receive it back, I send it back to the same TPG for "Grading", and they return it to me "Improperly Cleaned"?
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#27 Unread post by Coin Mule »

Hi all, you have the following to choose from, "cleaned", "improperly cleaned", "heavily cleaned", "altered surface", "artificial toning", "Doctored/Altered", "details", " Severely Scratched or Damaged/Rim Damage", "Environmental Damage", "Altered Color". So take you pick, and the worst part is you never get a "why"?

Hey Paul, because one mans conservation is another mans "Improperly Cleaned". 😆😆😆
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#28 Unread post by Earle42 »

Paul wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:22 pm Interesting…

So what happens if I send a coin off to a well-known TPG, and they "Conserve" the coin, & return it to me 'Raw'.....
& as soon as I receive it back, I send it back to the same TPG for "Grading", and they return it to me "Improperly Cleaned"?
Then, as many others have been, a person becomes yet another victim of the marketing and business model used by the TPGs. They find yet another way these companies have damaged the hobby. Trying to get one of the companies to admit this type of problem was due to them might be a bit like pulling hen's teeth.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#29 Unread post by Earle42 »

Hey Paul, because one mans conservation is another mans "Improperly Cleaned".
But, for the benefit of newbies who might come here:
If a coin (can be and is) properly conserved, there is no way to tell anything has happened to it.

And some of the conservation I have seen done (only pictures online though) by the company's performing a conservation have looked like an original coin. But again, there is no magic to it. If a chemical touching the coin cannot interact with the coin chemically or physically, the removing that substance is the same as just getting rid of a raindrop that fell onto a coin.

The only problem I have with this whole subject is that the companies get paid a hefty price for what a person can do themselves with likely only some inexpensive acetone or xylene. But of course, since the masses all "know" the companies are unquestionable and use magic in their dealings, no mere mortal could possibly apply acetone like one of the companies would.

And here is yet one more gray area.
If someone dips a coin in E-Z-Est or uses MS70, the claim by the companies is that no one can tell so they will straight grade.
Sometime take a melt value silver quarter in MS and then take an tarnished MS of same kind and dip it (properly - no over dip to make it bland)). The newly dipped coin will have a brilliant white appearance as opposed to the natural color of luster evident when a silver planchet is made into a coin.

And..really...not enough people seem to care, and or are not familiar enough with the difference that it matters to them. Technically bot the aforementioned chemilcals are "cleaning," the coin since they remove a microscopic layer of metal.

...always a gray area...
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#30 Unread post by Primrose44 »

It's have been maintaining a coin since cleaning might interfere with it's properties. It'd have been better to
keep the coin safe instead of spoiling and having to clean it.

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#31 Unread post by Earle42 »

As with everything in life worth doing, education (and hands on experience) is the way to understand how to do anything. I would never pay a slabbing company to conserve a coin b/c all they are going to do is likely what safe procedures I outlined above...and charge and arm and a leg for doing it.

But then again, I am a die hard researcher and DIY'er when it comes to anything. I also have learned from experience though that I make sure my homework is done (and done well) ahead of time, and I make sure I take no interest in how fast the job can be done (vs. doing it right).
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#32 Unread post by JakBird »

What about cleaning some of the worst looking coins that come out of a bag of 90% junk silver? These are good or VG at best, common dates and have little collector value. As an example, consider pre-65 Roosevelt dimes or Franklin halves with a lot of black spots. On average the wear factor is much less than Liberty dimes/halves, what harm is done cleaning the surface if it doesn't appreciably affect silver content?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#33 Unread post by Earle42 »

When something has no hobby-collectable value, then you cannot remove hobby-collectable value by cleaning it. Melt it melt.

If someone wanted to take the time to clean them, I am not sure of the benefit.

Also, the above techniques may work anyway without just taking a scrub brush and Comet cleanser to them. Personally I like the history of the coins too much to do something harsh to them. That's just me.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#34 Unread post by JakBird »

Being retired I do have the time. As for the benefit, I don't plan to sell them for the foreseeable future. Second class coins like 90% junk silver exist for the precious metal value, in that day far in the future when some member of my family sells them. A nice aesthetic doesn't hurt the premium over spot (and that is the question) but it does make the coins more attractive to the next buyer...and to me. I'd like to see the details under the crud on top.

Comet, no, but there are ways to remove some of the oxidation without abrasives (aluminum foil, hot water, detergent, salt and baking soda). Sure there's a very small amount of silver lost, but it's no worse than being worn down in circulation.

I'd never subject a Morgan dollar to this, but a 1959-D Roosevelt dime in circulated condition? Why not?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#35 Unread post by Earle42 »

A nice aesthetic doesn't hurt the premium over spot (and that is the question) but it does make the coins more attractive to the next buyer...and to me
Which is what this thread was about - how to safely make sure the coin has not been altered while removal of foreign matter is accomplished. A legitimate aesthetic brings a premium and does not change the metal of the coin (in looks or otherwise).

But the baking soda method you mentioned gives an artificial shine to the coins compared to what the look of minted silver actually looks like. I have used this to take the tarnish off of silverware (minus the salt and soap).

I saw a youtube video where a newbie was using this exact method to make his coins "more expensive to make money" by making the more shiny. He ruined several good coins by stripping the traces of actual mint luster that had and giving them an easily recognizable fake shine. While they would look pretty to people not used to the hobby, the damage was obvious to anyone knowing the difference. These are the kinds of coins that come back from a grader as "cleaned" and do not bring a premium in the hobby.

In other words, shiny-from-cleaning does not mean "valuable" to coin collectors, it means ruined coins.

Original luster from the mint, and from the physics behind the process which produces it, cannot be duplicated with chemicals or any other method of cleaning.

To remove crud - use the ways mentioned in this thread and you will not deprive these pieces of history of potential value. Nothing, to a coin collector, is worse looking that an artificially cleaned/altered pile of silver coins.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#36 Unread post by Matthudson »

I don't know, Earle. I hate to play Devil's Advocate, but I was able to successfully upgrade this excavated, heavily corroded 1866 Shield Nickel all the way to a "P01 - details" grade!

Just by letting it soak in a mixture of vinegar, lemon juice, and salt for an afternoon. Now, off to ICG for slabbing. I'm gonna ask for TWO dollars for it! Or what size hole should I drill in it to yield the most useful washer? If the coin has a diameter of 21mm... maybe 13-14?

Some circulated coins (silver) do "come back" after time with natural ingredients, like baking soda (pat - don't rub. Or boil in distilled water solution). Lemon juice brightens faded unc cents. Be BRIEF!! Vinegar for nickel, I shy away from using salt, except to remove stubborn corrosion, accepting that it will also etch the surface of the good part of the coin too. Chemicals like bleach, ammonia, CLR - are never beneficial. Leave the coins exposed afterwards for a few months. Smoke cigars around them. (Yes, I did just say that!)

S2310523.JPG

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#37 Unread post by Matthudson »

Earle42 wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:46 pm
A legitimate aesthetic brings a premium and does not change the metal of the coin (in looks or otherwise).

But the baking soda method you mentioned gives an artificial shine to the coins compared to what the look of minted silver actually looks like. I have used this to take the tarnish off of silverware (minus the salt and soap).

To remove crud - use the ways mentioned in this thread and you will not deprive these pieces of history of potential value. Nothing, to a coin collector, is worse looking that an artificially cleaned/altered pile of silver coins.
Plus, remember the mantra: "Toning is your friend!" The only time any coin should be considered for conservation IMHO is if the toning is absolutely unfavorable to the overall appeal, or there is a reasonable chance that the coin will be improved which is more often not the case. At any rate, coins of any considerable value are best left for a trusted professional to decide. Also, you can do what I do: If you can't decide, just give all the coins you're unsure of to Earle.

(I tried, Earle.)

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#38 Unread post by waynesonofpeter »

Earl, I thought there was a reason nobody responded to my question. Thank you for this post. What is xylene? Or where would I get it? I've used acetone (nail polish remover,) but I'm not familiar with this.

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#39 Unread post by Earle42 »

@Matt
Earle42 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:46 pm
A legitimate aesthetic brings a premium and does not change the metal of the coin (in looks or otherwise).

But the baking soda method you mentioned gives an artificial shine to the coins compared to what the look of minted silver actually looks like. I have used this to take the tarnish off of silverware (minus the salt and soap).

To remove crud - use the ways mentioned in this thread and you will not deprive these pieces of history of potential value. Nothing, to a coin collector, is worse looking that an artificially cleaned/altered pile of silver coins.
Plus, remember the mantra: "Toning is your friend!" The only time any coin should be considered for conservation IMHO is if the toning is absolutely unfavorable to the overall appeal, or there is a reasonable chance that the coin will be improved which is more often not the case. At any rate, coins of any considerable value are best left for a trusted professional to decide. Also, you can do what I do: If you can't decide, just give all the coins you're unsure of to Earle.

(I tried, Earle.)
Oh my...how did I miss THIS post? Well, I may be late to it Matt, but I got a good :laughing-rolling: out of it!

BTW - the annual parade of antique cars went by my house today. Always love it. But this year there was a Hudson! Guess who I thought of? It was in bad shape though so no pics. Evidently the guy has just started to restore it. Its paint job literally looked like someone did it with a brush and house paint as well as graffiti being all over it.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#40 Unread post by Earle42 »

@waynesonofpeter:
waynesonofpeter wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:45 pm Earl, I thought there was a reason nobody responded to my question. Thank you for this post. What is xylene? Or where would I get it? I've used acetone (nail polish remover,) but I'm not familiar with this.
Xylene can be found in the paint thinner section. Use it outside b/c it stinks!

Although I never had to resort to xylee yet. I once let a Mercury dime sit in it for a couple months (closed container so it did not evaporate) just so I could tell people online it does not mess with the metal of the coin.

Walmart Xylene
Walmart Xylene
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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