👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

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👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#1 Unread post by Earle42 »

Cleaning coins 101 - or "Altered Surface Coins 101":
1. "Cleaning" a coin means metal has been removed. This includes polishing. If, like with a tissue, wiping a coin will scratch the surface, then the wiping also comes under the heading of cleaning.😡

2. Restoring/conserving a coin is removing foreign matter form the surface without affecting the metal in any way.😊

Spilled Pepsi on a coin?
1. Cleaning would be rubbing (wet or dry) the coin to get the Pepsi off and/or rubbing/wiping with a cloth to dry that will scratch the coin.😡
2. Conservation/restoration: putting the coin into water to dissolve the Pepsi stain and patting dry with a cotton cloth (cotton will not mark up the metal).😊

Conservation - most common ways:
A soak in acetone (polar solvent) will remove many foreign substances. If acetone does not work xylene (non-polar solvent) might (rinse well with water). Neither can chemically or physically alter the metal (former chemistry teacher) and therefore will not show cleaned (metal alteration) marks.

UPDATED info: Note if an older lustrous coin has gunk surrounding details (such as surrounding each letter inside of a coin's rim), then removing that gunk sometimes shows where the gunk actually preserved the original lusted by hiding it from the environment. In that case, removing the gunk makes the surface luster uneven to the fields in those spots and people will call this a "cleaned" coin.


Is E-Z-est, therefore cleaning?
Yes. It removes a microscopic level of metal.
But since the grading companies say you cannot tell there is a difference, when done properly, people WITH EXPERIENCE will use it and think nothing of it. Proof coins especially look original. Whereas, with a side by side comparison, an MS dipped coin has a beautiful blast white look, but technically it is not the exact same as an as-minted blast white coin from the mint. Side by side comparison is the only way some people can tell the difference.

Why does "everyone" say NOT to clean coins?
As with most things in life, "THAT PERSON" is out there. THAT PERSON is the kind who knows they are most certainly not THAT PERSON, and therefore they take a wire brush and comet cleanser to an MS 20.00 gold piece to shine it up a bit before selling. They get nothing for their efforts and know the entire world is wrong b/c they do not appreciate the improvements to the coin. The only way to save coins from THAT PERSON is to yell from the tallest mountain tops, "Don't Clean Coins...ever...never...ever!"...it sometimes works.

How to learn to use E-Z-est:
Practice with E-Z-est is ESSENTIAL not to ruin coins by over-dipping. Its all too easy to over-dip a coin and remove all luster and natural look.

Ruining some melt value coins is likely the only way to learn how to use E-Z-Est effectively. DIp a coin for one second and rinse well - put aside. Dip another 2 seconds and rinse well - set aside. Three seconds, etc. You will soon find the point of over-dipping when the coin becomes lifeless with no luster. Look at the coins and the times you dipped them. Get a feel for the chemical. Practice makes perfect.

Where do I get PURE acetone?
Walmart in the health and beauty section. Around 2.97 a bottle (was 1.50 before the Nov. 2020 coup!). Sold as a fingernail polish remover. Do NOT use regular fingernail polish with additives like perfumes and coloring b/c the added perfumes and colors are chemicals that are not good for your coins.
acetone.jpeg
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins - Improving Coins 👀

#2 Unread post by Paul »

Maybe you should've titled this:

"Altered Surface Coins 101"
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or ""Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#3 Unread post by Earle42 »

Thanks. Revised - great idea.

I just left the word cleaning in the title also b/c people who are the targets of this post typically have no concept there is such a thing as cleaning vs. conserving. The title is better with your upgrade I think.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#4 Unread post by Paul »

I hear you, it's just my opinion.
You don't need to change your title.
........ but I do believe, that if you do "ANYTHING" to a coin...... you are altering its surface.

And this is the problem we have today in this industry.....

"Shiny Is More Valuable", seems to be the misconception 98% of the population has
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#5 Unread post by Earle42 »

I agree with the "Shiny" part. Sad.
........ but I do believe, that if you do "ANYTHING" to a coin...... you are altering its surface.
Trying to understand this. I agree in a technical sense the coin is being altered. IN fact the very action of accidentally spilling Pepsi on the coin is an "alteration," of environmental, but not of the metal/coin itself (since there is no chemical or physical change). The Pepsi just displaces whatever was in contact with the surface of the coin(air). I would not expect leaving the Pepsi there is something you would condone?

Some alterations (your definition) I feel are a necessity. My own mental picture of a coin restoration is like when I take a coat off of myself. Something covering the coin that did not belong there at the start is just being removed.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#6 Unread post by Paul »

I agree, I'm just referencing what the TPG's are going to give you for a label.....

Because if "They" didn't do it, it's considered.........

As a collector, I want the coin in its natural state,… Even if it is stained or dirty
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#7 Unread post by Earle42 »

Makes sense. Although I know they cannot tell always when something has been done. And the solvents I mentioned cannot alter the metal. But when the solvent removes something, obviously if there is a difference in color, then, like you say, they also will call it cleaned as well.

I have gotten by NGC with Heinz 57 before. It was one coin of the only submissions I ever made...for the experience and learning. I had a 1931-S cent that I had bought many years ago with full mint luster. When stored away in the original 2X2 for years, it lost most of the luster, but Heinz Ketchup brought some back.. The graded it with no problem.

Granted, it may have been a fluke as I have no more experience with this. But to me their actual track record of expertise shrinks more and more every time I do some serious research into their companies. I have less of an opinion now of them than I ever did even when they started out and the people (adult collectors) I knew at the time were thinking it all a sham.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#8 Unread post by Justice41ca »

Hi Earl and Paul,

Just in the short time I have been reading and researching, I can see there is some major changes in the industry that in my opinion are not for the better. You all that have been doing this for long time, I am sure it is very frustrating.

There are videos out there and everyone is an expert and they know the answer. LOL

When it comes to cleaning or conserving, there are many sites with different answers and systems of what will harm or not harm etc. I was going crazy because I wanted a definite answer. For every site that said yes..... there are twice as many that say no, or tell you how to do it. It is hard for a new person.

What I do like, is you all here are along the same lines as David Bowers and the way you teach people. When I watched Daniels video on the subject of cleaning vs conservation. It reminded me of David Bowers. Gave the Facts, the descriptions, Whys, Why Nots, and last but the least the HOW.

Yes! I would love for these coins to all look shiny but I now know that most your die hard collectors want original and that makes since to me. What I have is the corrosion on the coins. Some of these I just want to keep because they are from a certain time or just because they are old. I have also learned that corrosion will just continue to expand on the coin. Meanwhile the corrosion itself damaging the coin.
So that is what I do. I never clean but I do conserve....
I know Ezest is recommended, but only for non circulated coins. I have tried many things and I finely have the answer. For me anyway. It does for circulated coins what Ezest does for silver without touching the toning or luster. To bad we can't use cyanide like they used to.
Like Earl said, Teach a man to fish.......

Oh by the way I do have a coin shop near me. In fact a couple of nice ones. Problem I did the search with my computer instead of my phone. I don't know why the different results but now I can't wait to go.

Daniel, I have been to your online shop and trust me, I know it's me.... But I can't find any sets. I am one of the those people that want the silver sets. I tried and tried to get the 2020 I didn't get.

Take care you all, keep it up we need it......
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#9 Unread post by Earle42 »

BTW - as a side note...when looking for RPMs in circulated condition (and stored away many many moons ago), I found a porcupine quill is soft enough it will not scratch the metal (aka. you cannot tell its been done), and some have points small enough to actually get inside the micro spaces of the mint marks to scoop out accumulated gunk. So rather than soak coins I am not sure are special in acetone and then maybe have to go the xylene route, I use the quill. If you don't have a pet porcy, and road kill does not produce in your locale, try eBay...bags of them for cheap.

Just mentioning something I wanted to try, bought the equipment for, and have yet to get to, I always thought maybe using an airbrush forcing acetone onto the coin might be a great way to get gunk out as well. Sort of like a small pressure washer with acetone so there is no mess.

I read someplace online (which I wish had documented) from an alleged NGC restorer that they use warm acetone. I suppose warming acetone is possible in a closed container (that can withstand pressure), but acetone feels cold to the touch b/c room temperature is already close to its boiling point. So I have not looked into this either.
.... there are twice as many that say no, or tell you how to do it. It is hard for a new person.
Which is why we all appreciate Daniel's channel/forum/sire/store/example. 👍 👍 👍
I have also learned that corrosion will just continue to expand on the coin. Meanwhile the corrosion itself damaging the coin.
Of course it would depend on how rare the coin, and its just MY OPINION WITH MY OWN COINS that corrosion has to go. And since the coin is corroded and lost value anyway, I will remove it in any way I can. Of course I am not saying I take a wire brush to the coin, but I accept the removal is likely to alter (clean) some of the non-corroded surface. I just keep the altered as small and local as I can. I feel damaged a coin by cleaning what was already damaged from corrosion, and therefore stopping the cororsion's spread, is not losing anything IN MY PERSONAL OPINION.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#10 Unread post by Justice41ca »

Earle42 wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:24 pm BTW - as a side note...when looking for RPMs in circulated condition (and stored away many many moons ago), I found a porcupine quill is soft enough it will not scratch the metal (aka. you cannot tell its been done), and some have points small enough to actually get inside the micro spaces of the mint marks to scoop out accumulated gunk. So rather than soak coins I am not sure are special in acetone and then maybe have to go the xylene route, I use the quill. If you don't have a pet porcy, and road kill does not produce in your locale, try eBay...bags of them for cheap.

Just mentioning something I wanted to try, bought the equipment for, and have yet to get to, I always thought maybe using an airbrush forcing acetone onto the coin might be a great way to get gunk out as well. Sort of like a small pressure washer with acetone so there is no mess.
What years or dominations are you looking for or any year or type?
Second I found something that doesn't hurt the coin and I don't believe it will look cleaned. I have tried it on 2021 penny's, quarters, nickels and dimes. I have now tried it on older coins takes off the crap and leaves the coin. works in the tiny spots also. OH let me send a pic of what I found that is fantastic for very little spaces.
Oh and I found a way to take that black stuff off of silver and leave the coin in very good shape. I am sure you all know about all the things I have found. Vinegar and salt messed up more than helped. Don't worry remember I said I wouldn't spend coins for a long time. Just going through my tossed change and experimenting on nothing coins.
BTW you were going to find your coin to give me an example of weak strike did you find?
Jeanne

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#11 Unread post by Justice41ca »

Paul wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:30 pm I agree, I'm just referencing what the TPG's are going to give you for a label.....

Because if "They" didn't do it, it's considered.........

As a collector, I want the coin in its natural state,… Even if it is stained or dirty
What does TPG stand for? It is not listed on my site I go to for acronyms: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/numism ... nyms.1559/
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#12 Unread post by Earle42 »

Third Party Grading service(s)

Companies that will "slab" coins.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#13 Unread post by Paul »

It's on my list of things to do....... which is very long
I know it's on a thumb drive, buried in my safe...... somewhere
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#14 Unread post by Justice41ca »

Here is the item
Attachments
Small tight places
Small tight places
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#15 Unread post by Earle42 »

What years or dominations are you looking for or any year or type?
That's the hard way to go about it and causes a lot of frustration and dead ends.

I took rolls of any denomination, sorted the coins by date, went to varietyvista, and date by date looked to see what I should be looking for.

After awhile of this my eye started to recognize real RPMs from fake things like MD. That is one of the best ways to learn.

Same with actual doubled dies.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#16 Unread post by Justice41ca »

Earle42 wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:08 pm
What years or dominations are you looking for or any year or type?
That's the hard way to go about it and causes a lot of frustration and dead ends.

I took rolls of any denomination, sorted the coins by date, went to varietyvista, and date by date looked to see what I should be looking for.

After awhile of this my eye started to recognize real RPMs from fake things like MD. That is one of the best ways to learn.

Same with actual doubled dies.
You said you were looking for RPM at least that is how I read it. I have been going to variety vista, watching the videos, error-ref and of course still referring back to my books. I am almost to the point of putting everything away and come back to it once I retire. This project has been very time consuming and I just took a 2nd job. We will see. Did you see the smallest cotton on a stick? I put a picture up. I found this in my make up supplies it works awesome on small creases without scratching. You can get on Amazon.
I wish I could learn. Everything starts to look the same I find more nothings than anything.
Jeanne

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#17 Unread post by Earle42 »

You said you were looking for RPM at least that is how I read it.
Yes, I can understand the confusion 😊

Sorry if I am wrong, but from your posts I am assuming English is a second language for you? Spanish is a second language for me and I can easily mistake things.

I said:
BTW - as a side note...when looking for RPMs in circulated condition...
If I had said, "I am looking for RPMs," this would mean right now I am seeking to find specific ones for my collection.

The words "when looking" make the sentence mean there are occasions when I check coins to see if there are any RPMs. I do not have a goal of any specific ones to find...its just a general search for any of them.
Did you see the smallest cotton on a stick? I put a picture up. I found this in my make up supplies it works awesome on small creases without scratching.
As long as it does not leave any marks on the coin, then this is good!
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#18 Unread post by MartinJ »

My two cents worth---All those beautiful bright white Morgan dollars you see all over have been dipped.

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#19 Unread post by Coin Mule »

MartinJ wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:45 pm My two cents worth---All those beautiful bright white Morgan dollars you see all over have been dipped.
Yeah right Bud, next you are going to tell me that many toned coins are done artificially by watching a youtube video
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#20 Unread post by Justice41ca »

Earle42 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:09 pm
You said you were looking for RPM at least that is how I read it.
Yes, I can understand the confusion 😊

Sorry if I am wrong, but from your posts I am assuming English is a second language for you? Spanish is a second language for me and I can easily mistake things.

Sorry Eric, English is my one and only language. I am dyslexic and if I don't take my time (it takes a lot of time) when writing, I destroy the English Language along with Grammer.
It is fine, sorry for those of you that have to figure out what I'm saying. I also will misunderstand if I read too fast. Not offended
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#21 Unread post by richard560729 »

I hope this comment and question is appropriate to the topic. I see that E Z Est is a dilute mixture of sulfuric acid and thiourea, a common set of ingredients in the silver cleaning market. Tarn-X is similar, for instance. In a few posts, certain kinds of dish washing liquid are also considered appropriate, likely to clean the dirt from a surface. [?] I have not seen a comment about the use of "chelating agents", for instance EDTA containing liquid soap or jewelry cleaner. I would suspect that this is inappropriate to use, also, but I thought I would ask.

As an additional question, would silver polish also be avoided. It is commonly used on silver jewelry and silverware, but may I presume that is it forbidden to use on silver coins?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#22 Unread post by Justice41ca »

richard560729 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:43 pm I hope this comment and question is appropriate to the topic. I see that E Z Est is a dilute mixture of sulfuric acid and thiourea, a common set of ingredients in the silver cleaning market. Tarn-X is similar, for instance. In a few posts, certain kinds of dish washing liquid are also considered appropriate, likely to clean the dirt from a surface. [?] I have not seen a comment about the use of "chelating agents", for instance EDTA containing liquid soap or jewelry cleaner. I would suspect that this is inappropriate to use, also, but I thought I would ask.

As an additional question, would silver polish also be avoided. It is commonly used on silver jewelry and silverware, but may I presume that is it forbidden to use on silver coins?
I am going to ask did you watch Daniels video. It is great and he explains a lot. I can't answer your other question because I seem to have trouble learning this stuff. But, some the other items you listed are abrasive and will leave marks on the coin. But don't go by me... One of the other guys will give you answers. Go watch the videos though. I think you will get a lot out of it. Thank God, I watched it before I did what some guy said on the internet said...... LOL
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#23 Unread post by Earle42 »

A mild dishwashing soap will not harm the metal, but the problem is a lot of people like to scrub the coin with is or else rub the coin to wipe it dry. That leaves marks and ruins the value.

If the original metal is unaltered (in any way at all), and the coin shows no signs of the metal being altered, then the coin is not what the hobby calls "cleaned" (loses value).

As to chelating agents, I do not know enough about them to comment and I have no experience with them on coins.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#24 Unread post by Paul »

"If the original metal is unaltered (in any way at all), and the coin shows no signs of the metal being altered, then the coin is not what the hobby calls "cleaned" (loses value)."

HUH?
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#25 Unread post by Earle42 »

A number of years ago the slabbing companies decided they would make a differentiation between "cleaning" and "conserving" a coin. They started to offer "conservation services" ($$$$$) where the company would work on the coin to try to make it look factory fresh with no physical means of telling the coin ever looked different. They called this "conserving."

Thus the word "cleaning" became to be known as a coin where you could tell something had been done to it to try to "improve" its looks. Parallel marks from rubbing, polishing, and metal color changes from removing too much metal from the surface with chemicals (making a dull and lifeless appearance vs. original luster) thereafter was differentiated as "cleaning" the coin.

By modern definition, a "conserved" coin will be graded b/c no one can tell anything has been done to it (coffee stain, tape residue, glue residue, magic marker removed etc. with no trace of action done...aka. no physical trace of the metal being altered/brushed/polishes/removed etc.). A cleaned coin (obvious alteration of metal physically or chemically) will be returned with a details grade.

So nowadays when people say, "cleaned coins lose value," they are not talking about coins the slabbing industry says are "conserved." The meaning is that if anything is done to a coin which leaves evidence the coin was altered, then the value is lowered by that alteration. "Cleaning" is not just rinsing off spilled coffee, its using a srubbing pad and polish to rub off the coffee and stain. This action removes microscopic parts of the metal as well. The result is obvious damage/scratches/alteration of luster, which are all microscopically caused by the metal itself being altered.

But, like I said above, if someone spilled coffee on their coin and immediately rinsed it off and let the coin dry...nothing at all, not even on a microscopic level, was changed or altered in the actual, original metal itself. ONLY the coffee was affected by the water removing it from the surface of the metal. The coffee and metal were never chemically one substance. They did not chemically react to change one another's composition or appearance once separated again. Rinsing off the coffee did not alter the metal chemically - and there was no (scientific definition) physical change of the metal itself. The coin is exactly as it was before the coffee was spilled.

Done properly (no toothbrush scratches etc.), there is no way anyone could ever tell the coffee was there. This is "conservation." Conserved coins are/will be graded.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#26 Unread post by Paul »

Interesting…

So what happens if I send a coin off to a well-known TPG, and they "Conserve" the coin, & return it to me 'Raw'.....
& as soon as I receive it back, I send it back to the same TPG for "Grading", and they return it to me "Improperly Cleaned"?
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#27 Unread post by Coin Mule »

Hi all, you have the following to choose from, "cleaned", "improperly cleaned", "heavily cleaned", "altered surface", "artificial toning", "Doctored/Altered", "details", " Severely Scratched or Damaged/Rim Damage", "Environmental Damage", "Altered Color". So take you pick, and the worst part is you never get a "why"?

Hey Paul, because one mans conservation is another mans "Improperly Cleaned". 😆😆😆
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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#28 Unread post by Earle42 »

Paul wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:22 pm Interesting…

So what happens if I send a coin off to a well-known TPG, and they "Conserve" the coin, & return it to me 'Raw'.....
& as soon as I receive it back, I send it back to the same TPG for "Grading", and they return it to me "Improperly Cleaned"?
Then, as many others have been, a person becomes yet another victim of the marketing and business model used by the TPGs. They find yet another way these companies have damaged the hobby. Trying to get one of the companies to admit this type of problem was due to them might be a bit like pulling hen's teeth.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#29 Unread post by Earle42 »

Hey Paul, because one mans conservation is another mans "Improperly Cleaned".
But, for the benefit of newbies who might come here:
If a coin (can be and is) properly conserved, there is no way to tell anything has happened to it.

And some of the conservation I have seen done (only pictures online though) by the company's performing a conservation have looked like an original coin. But again, there is no magic to it. If a chemical touching the coin cannot interact with the coin chemically or physically, the removing that substance is the same as just getting rid of a raindrop that fell onto a coin.

The only problem I have with this whole subject is that the companies get paid a hefty price for what a person can do themselves with likely only some inexpensive acetone or xylene. But of course, since the masses all "know" the companies are unquestionable and use magic in their dealings, no mere mortal could possibly apply acetone like one of the companies would.

And here is yet one more gray area.
If someone dips a coin in E-Z-Est or uses MS70, the claim by the companies is that no one can tell so they will straight grade.
Sometime take a melt value silver quarter in MS and then take an tarnished MS of same kind and dip it (properly - no over dip to make it bland)). The newly dipped coin will have a brilliant white appearance as opposed to the natural color of luster evident when a silver planchet is made into a coin.

And..really...not enough people seem to care, and or are not familiar enough with the difference that it matters to them. Technically bot the aforementioned chemilcals are "cleaning," the coin since they remove a microscopic layer of metal.

...always a gray area...
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#30 Unread post by Primrose44 »

It's have been maintaining a coin since cleaning might interfere with it's properties. It'd have been better to
keep the coin safe instead of spoiling and having to clean it.

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#31 Unread post by Earle42 »

As with everything in life worth doing, education (and hands on experience) is the way to understand how to do anything. I would never pay a slabbing company to conserve a coin b/c all they are going to do is likely what safe procedures I outlined above...and charge and arm and a leg for doing it.

But then again, I am a die hard researcher and DIY'er when it comes to anything. I also have learned from experience though that I make sure my homework is done (and done well) ahead of time, and I make sure I take no interest in how fast the job can be done (vs. doing it right).
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#32 Unread post by JakBird »

What about cleaning some of the worst looking coins that come out of a bag of 90% junk silver? These are good or VG at best, common dates and have little collector value. As an example, consider pre-65 Roosevelt dimes or Franklin halves with a lot of black spots. On average the wear factor is much less than Liberty dimes/halves, what harm is done cleaning the surface if it doesn't appreciably affect silver content?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#33 Unread post by Earle42 »

When something has no hobby-collectable value, then you cannot remove hobby-collectable value by cleaning it. Melt it melt.

If someone wanted to take the time to clean them, I am not sure of the benefit.

Also, the above techniques may work anyway without just taking a scrub brush and Comet cleanser to them. Personally I like the history of the coins too much to do something harsh to them. That's just me.
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https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#34 Unread post by JakBird »

Being retired I do have the time. As for the benefit, I don't plan to sell them for the foreseeable future. Second class coins like 90% junk silver exist for the precious metal value, in that day far in the future when some member of my family sells them. A nice aesthetic doesn't hurt the premium over spot (and that is the question) but it does make the coins more attractive to the next buyer...and to me. I'd like to see the details under the crud on top.

Comet, no, but there are ways to remove some of the oxidation without abrasives (aluminum foil, hot water, detergent, salt and baking soda). Sure there's a very small amount of silver lost, but it's no worse than being worn down in circulation.

I'd never subject a Morgan dollar to this, but a 1959-D Roosevelt dime in circulated condition? Why not?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#35 Unread post by Earle42 »

A nice aesthetic doesn't hurt the premium over spot (and that is the question) but it does make the coins more attractive to the next buyer...and to me
Which is what this thread was about - how to safely make sure the coin has not been altered while removal of foreign matter is accomplished. A legitimate aesthetic brings a premium and does not change the metal of the coin (in looks or otherwise).

But the baking soda method you mentioned gives an artificial shine to the coins compared to what the look of minted silver actually looks like. I have used this to take the tarnish off of silverware (minus the salt and soap).

I saw a youtube video where a newbie was using this exact method to make his coins "more expensive to make money" by making the more shiny. He ruined several good coins by stripping the traces of actual mint luster that had and giving them an easily recognizable fake shine. While they would look pretty to people not used to the hobby, the damage was obvious to anyone knowing the difference. These are the kinds of coins that come back from a grader as "cleaned" and do not bring a premium in the hobby.

In other words, shiny-from-cleaning does not mean "valuable" to coin collectors, it means ruined coins.

Original luster from the mint, and from the physics behind the process which produces it, cannot be duplicated with chemicals or any other method of cleaning.

To remove crud - use the ways mentioned in this thread and you will not deprive these pieces of history of potential value. Nothing, to a coin collector, is worse looking that an artificially cleaned/altered pile of silver coins.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#36 Unread post by Matthudson »

I don't know, Earle. I hate to play Devil's Advocate, but I was able to successfully upgrade this excavated, heavily corroded 1866 Shield Nickel all the way to a "P01 - details" grade!

Just by letting it soak in a mixture of vinegar, lemon juice, and salt for an afternoon. Now, off to ICG for slabbing. I'm gonna ask for TWO dollars for it! Or what size hole should I drill in it to yield the most useful washer? If the coin has a diameter of 21mm... maybe 13-14?

Some circulated coins (silver) do "come back" after time with natural ingredients, like baking soda (pat - don't rub. Or boil in distilled water solution). Lemon juice brightens faded unc cents. Be BRIEF!! Vinegar for nickel, I shy away from using salt, except to remove stubborn corrosion, accepting that it will also etch the surface of the good part of the coin too. Chemicals like bleach, ammonia, CLR - are never beneficial. Leave the coins exposed afterwards for a few months. Smoke cigars around them. (Yes, I did just say that!)

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#37 Unread post by Matthudson »

Earle42 wrote: Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:46 pm
A legitimate aesthetic brings a premium and does not change the metal of the coin (in looks or otherwise).

But the baking soda method you mentioned gives an artificial shine to the coins compared to what the look of minted silver actually looks like. I have used this to take the tarnish off of silverware (minus the salt and soap).

To remove crud - use the ways mentioned in this thread and you will not deprive these pieces of history of potential value. Nothing, to a coin collector, is worse looking that an artificially cleaned/altered pile of silver coins.
Plus, remember the mantra: "Toning is your friend!" The only time any coin should be considered for conservation IMHO is if the toning is absolutely unfavorable to the overall appeal, or there is a reasonable chance that the coin will be improved which is more often not the case. At any rate, coins of any considerable value are best left for a trusted professional to decide. Also, you can do what I do: If you can't decide, just give all the coins you're unsure of to Earle.

(I tried, Earle.)

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#38 Unread post by waynesonofpeter »

Earl, I thought there was a reason nobody responded to my question. Thank you for this post. What is xylene? Or where would I get it? I've used acetone (nail polish remover,) but I'm not familiar with this.

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#39 Unread post by Earle42 »

@Matt
Earle42 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:46 pm
A legitimate aesthetic brings a premium and does not change the metal of the coin (in looks or otherwise).

But the baking soda method you mentioned gives an artificial shine to the coins compared to what the look of minted silver actually looks like. I have used this to take the tarnish off of silverware (minus the salt and soap).

To remove crud - use the ways mentioned in this thread and you will not deprive these pieces of history of potential value. Nothing, to a coin collector, is worse looking that an artificially cleaned/altered pile of silver coins.
Plus, remember the mantra: "Toning is your friend!" The only time any coin should be considered for conservation IMHO is if the toning is absolutely unfavorable to the overall appeal, or there is a reasonable chance that the coin will be improved which is more often not the case. At any rate, coins of any considerable value are best left for a trusted professional to decide. Also, you can do what I do: If you can't decide, just give all the coins you're unsure of to Earle.

(I tried, Earle.)
Oh my...how did I miss THIS post? Well, I may be late to it Matt, but I got a good :laughing-rolling: out of it!

BTW - the annual parade of antique cars went by my house today. Always love it. But this year there was a Hudson! Guess who I thought of? It was in bad shape though so no pics. Evidently the guy has just started to restore it. Its paint job literally looked like someone did it with a brush and house paint as well as graffiti being all over it.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 👀 Cleaning Coins 101: or "Altered Surface Coins 101" 👀

#40 Unread post by Earle42 »

@waynesonofpeter:
waynesonofpeter wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:45 pm Earl, I thought there was a reason nobody responded to my question. Thank you for this post. What is xylene? Or where would I get it? I've used acetone (nail polish remover,) but I'm not familiar with this.
Xylene can be found in the paint thinner section. Use it outside b/c it stinks!

Although I never had to resort to xylee yet. I once let a Mercury dime sit in it for a couple months (closed container so it did not evaporate) just so I could tell people online it does not mess with the metal of the coin.

Walmart Xylene
Walmart Xylene
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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