ICG - Are they accurate?

[Paul]

We should talk.............

[Earle42]

We should talk.............

My wife has a cell phone which is with her all day. I don't have a land line and I hate cell phones. I call them leashes b/c of the similarity of how people react to them like a pet on a leash.

I'm thankful I do not need one. I know so many people do!

Anyway... email?

[Coin Mule]

I like the IGC stuff, but they have almost no "cachet" "additional value". Certainly not like PCGS. But I have seen really good examples, so there is that.

[DSCoins]

There is another side (worse for us). With NGC, once you become a bulk submitter, you can send your coins on what they call pre-sort (I think that is name of it) They will go over submission and will let you know how many of your coin's grades fall into what you want for a grade, they do not encapsulate the coins until submitter tell them to grade all the MS69's MS70's same thing for their Proofs. After they get all the coins back, they will list them on their sites. All the ones that did meet their grades they sell as BU.

[Mrweaseluv]

Each of the 4 big TPGs has their own positive and negative issues. But you asked specificaly about ICG. Of the 4 I find ICG to be the most consistant in thier grading meaning the same coin submited 5 times would likely get the same grade 4 out of 5. The drawback is that they add the least premium on resale (but still better then a raw coin) When I finaly decide it's time to "slab" the $20 LC set it will be ICG they get sent too not one of the others... but then, I never intend to sell those coins so premium/resale value means nothing... if I planned to sell the set I would send them to PCGS or NGC as I could expect as much as 50% higher resale prices...

[RevElvisLee]

I know I personally, when handling a, let's say 1932-S of 1932-D quarter in MS, am a bit more awed than if it was a common date. I wonder if my own natural tendency is not also what subconsciously enters into a grader's mind as well.

Sort of the shoulder angel whispering, "Wow! The rarest of the Washingtons and in MS - woohoo! She's a beaut!" Then the automatic awe meter inside the brain lowers the bar for grading opinion and allows a better grade opinion to come out. After all, who would not want to see an MS key coin in hand and high MS?

I was just re-reading this and realized I didn't covey my meaning effectively. What I'm talking about is how they seem to protect the value of the top pops (and top pop adjacents) by maybe not grading the rarer of the two (1950 and 1962) as high in order to protect the price guide value. A deserving 1950 Franklin Proof hitting that 68+ grade brings down the resale value of the few that are already there, right? That's what I mean by market manipulation - protecting the rarities of top pops. Am I nuts? (Don't answer that!)

[Paul]

I know I personally, when handling a, let's say 1932-S of 1932-D quarter in MS, am a bit more awed than if it was a common date. I wonder if my own natural tendency is not also what subconsciously enters into a grader's mind as well.

Sort of the shoulder angel whispering, "Wow! The rarest of the Washingtons and in MS - woohoo! She's a beaut!" Then the automatic awe meter inside the brain lowers the bar for grading opinion and allows a better grade opinion to come out. After all, who would not want to see an MS key coin in hand and high MS?

I was just re-reading this and realized I didn't covey my meaning effectively. What I'm talking about is how they seem to protect the value of the top pops (and top pop adjacents) by maybe not grading the rarer of the two (1950 and 1962) as high in order to protect the price guide value. A deserving 1950 Franklin Proof hitting that 68+ grade brings down the resale value of the few that are already there, right? That's what I mean by market manipulation - protecting the rarities of top pops. Am I nuts? (Don't answer that!)

No

[RevElvisLee]

Each of the 4 big TPGs has their own positive and negative issues. But you asked specificaly about ICG. Of the 4 I find ICG to be the most consistant in thier grading meaning the same coin submited 5 times would likely get the same grade 4 out of 5. The drawback is that they add the least premium on resale (but still better then a raw coin) When I finaly decide it's time to "slab" the $20 LC set it will be ICG they get sent too not one of the others... but then, I never intend to sell those coins so premium/resale value means nothing... if I planned to sell the set I would send them to PCGS or NGC as I could expect as much as 50% higher resale prices...

I was just speaking to the owner of my local coin shop (about something ICG related but I'll start a new post about that one). He told me that ICG consistently wins the grading contest at the Long Beach Coin Show every year. So, he knows this full-well, yet he's only willing to pay raw coin prices for ICG. I don't get it. They're like the Rodney Dangerfield of grading services!

[RevElvisLee]

No

Whew! Well, that'll save me a TON in therapy bills.

[Earle42]

So, he knows this full-well, yet he's only willing to pay raw coin prices for ICG. I don't get it. They're like the Rodney Dangerfield of grading services!

B/c, as with so many other things, sadly, nowadays, its name brand that counts more over quality. The dealer is probably thinking if he pays more for it, then he will not be able to make any money b/c people won't pay him more for it.

[Mrweaseluv]

Each of the 4 big TPGs has their own positive and negative issues. But you asked specificaly about ICG. Of the 4 I find ICG to be the most consistant in thier grading meaning the same coin submited 5 times would likely get the same grade 4 out of 5. The drawback is that they add the least premium on resale (but still better then a raw coin) When I finaly decide it's time to "slab" the $20 LC set it will be ICG they get sent too not one of the others... but then, I never intend to sell those coins so premium/resale value means nothing... if I planned to sell the set I would send them to PCGS or NGC as I could expect as much as 50% higher resale prices...

I was just speaking to the owner of my local coin shop (about something ICG related but I'll start a new post about that one). He told me that ICG consistently wins the grading contest at the Long Beach Coin Show every year. So, he knows this full-well, yet he's only willing to pay raw coin prices for ICG. I don't get it. They're like the Rodney Dangerfield of grading services!

I know one of the ICG graders so I "may" just be a little biased, but he's never steered me wrong

[RevElvisLee]

So, he knows this full-well, yet he's only willing to pay raw coin prices for ICG. I don't get it. They're like the Rodney Dangerfield of grading services!

B/c, as with so many other things, sadly, nowadays, its name brand that counts more over quality. The dealer is probably thinking if he pays more for it, then he will not be able to make any money b/c people won't pay him more for it.

And unfortunately, he'd be right. I just ended up selling my MS64 IGC '27 Peace Dollar for just over half of what I know it should have sold for. I sold it for more than I bought it for, but by the time you factor in the sales tax I had to pay (curse you, Wayfair) and eBay's 12.55% cut, plus the $5 ad fee which is now pretty much obligatory if you want to compete at all, what should have been a win for me turned into breaking even. The only ones who made any money were eBay and the Great State of California. I guess I know why the call it a "hobby"!

[RevElvisLee]

So... I guess there's one way to find out if my ICG MS64 Peace Dollar is a PCGS MS64 Peace Dollar. Too late to turn back now.

The Dremel worked really well! And I feel a little sick.

[Earle42]

That is the nicest crack out I have seen. I have read where other just take a pair of pliers and crack the plastic.

[RevElvisLee]

That is the nicest crack out I have seen. I have read where other just take a pair of pliers and crack the plastic.

One thing you can say about these ICG holders is they feel nice and solid! But a Dremel with a small circular blade along one edge was all it took, then a flathead screwdriver to carefully pry it apart. This was my first crackout. Kinda nerve-racking!

[Earle42]

Kinda nerve-racking!

Yes, but just like an ex-con - its enjoying freedom again!

[markustg]

I held a VF35 ICG graded 1872 Indian cent in my hand yesterday, in a my new favorite coin store. The co-owner and I chatted a lot about it and I will not speak for him, but he for sure knows his stuff.
I am no indian cent expert but I play one on TV ( I have take the ANA grading coresponsece course, I have all Rick Snow's books, and I can click on PCGS photograde on-line ).
I bought two coins yesterday but not the 1872 Indian cent even though I am looking for a VF + XF coin.
The coin in the ICG holder looked over graded and at best VF-20. In addition all the highest high points looked "rubbed or buffed or cleaned" so I was betting if I sent it to NGC, PCGS or ANACS it would come back VF-20 cleaned or details
This is only one experience but since it happened yesterday I thought I would post it about what I saw in the ICG holder.

[Earle42]

Sort of like these PCGS slabs?

No grading company uses scientifically verifiable standards to grade. When people start to see through the marketing (and mass mindset) hype, they can find slabs like this from all the grading companies without having to dig thorough huge piles of slabs (see the essay in my signature!).

If I had a ruler where all of the markings on it it were just drawn on as what "looked to be the right spacing," I have a ruler with inherent problems and have to have a wonderful marketing department to get a business selling those rulers up and going. The loyal followers would eventually step in line.

Harsh, but true. The grading companies set up as being subjective, then turned to a legitimate scientific standard in the 90s, and then abandoned it for their original opinions-only system. This was despite them selling their computerized system by saying it gave the actual grade of a coin and was not subject to the errors known to be made with human grading.

Most likely the above was b/c when a coin always grades the same way - no more profits come in from the profitable re-slabbing game.

Accuracy can only be had by comparing to a verifiable standard.