1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

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1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#1 Unread post by RevElvisLee »

I could really use some advice on this one. I've been posting a lot about ICG lately because I've had a couple of opportunities to buy some nice coins on the cheap. But since we all know they're only worth half as much without the Gucci, eh... I mean PCGS label on them, I'm wondering what's the smartest way to make that happen. I'm trying to decide whether to try crossing this Morgan over and rely on PCGS to not be biased by the fact that it's in a competitor's slab, or throw caution to the wind, crack it out and hope it doesn't come back as "questionable smell" or "it looked at us funny". I think it ought to cross. In fact, it seems like it ought to be PL to me. But I'm wrong a lot. So if you've had experience doing crossovers/crackouts, I'd love to hear your opinion.

I'm including photos of the obv/rev and a still from a video that shows off the mirror-like surface. Thanks, as always. I really do appreciate your input!

Steve
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Just my two cents...
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#2 Unread post by SensibleSal66 »

Hello! I'm not the greatest grader, but in my opinion ICG got it right on the grade. I'm just Not sure PCGS would be so generous and give it the same grade. I also think this one is NOT worth the risk. On Ebay, they are trying to sell for around the same amount whether it's PCGS or ICG. (actually, the three ICG graded one's that are displayed are going for more) . JMHO. :)
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#3 Unread post by RevElvisLee »

SensibleSal66 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 1:37 pm Hello! I'm not the greatest grader, but in my opinion ICG got it right on the grade. I'm just Not sure PCGS would be so generous and give it the same grade. I also think this one is NOT worth the risk. On Ebay, they are trying to sell for around the same amount whether it's PCGS or ICG. (actually, the three ICG graded one's that are displayed are going for more) . JMHO. :)
I've got this one up for sale on eBay at the moment for $500, but I keep getting lowball offers in the mid $200s. I could just play it safe and send it in for a crossover, but I have a feeling you're right about them not being generous (not that they ever have been in my experience) if I do it that way. They're going to be influenced by the ICG grade and think they have to be more conservative. If it DOES cross, its Price Guide value is $775. Apparently, that PCGS label is worth around $500, whereas the coin is worth $275. That's kinda depressing! 😂
Just my two cents...
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#4 Unread post by Earle42 »

Sorry - no advice here. But hey, what an idea! Now the companies can start offering advertising, charging a fee to the advertisers and keep the fee the same for collectors. Plus think of what it would do for making more registry set categories!
1904-o-morgan-gucci.jpg

Bob: Hey Fred, How's your Chiquita Banana Morgan set coming?
Fred: Well I got a an MS70 Chiquita Label the other day in a box of cereal!
Bob: For which Morgan?
Fred: Who cares, I got the grade and the label!
Bob: Ya' hear about the new Kentucky Fried Chicken slab certification sticker you can get now?
:character-jestercolor:
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#5 Unread post by RevElvisLee »

Earle42 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:53 pm Sorry - no advice here. But hey, what an idea! Now the companies can start offering advertising, charging a fee to the advertisers and keep the fee the same for collectors. Plus thin of what it would do for making more registry set cateogories!

1904-o-morgan-gucci.jpg


Bob: Hey Fred, How's your Chiquita Banana Morgan set coming?
Fred: Well I got a an MS70 Chiquita Label the other day in a box of cereal!
Bob: For which Morgan?
Fred: Who cares, I got the grade and the label!
Bob: Ya' hear about the new Kentucky Fried Chicken slab certification sticker you can get now?
:character-jestercolor:
:lol:

Now you're talking! Versace will be next, along with Ferrari and before you know it, The Khloé Kardashian Kollection!
Just my two cents...
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#6 Unread post by Earle42 »

I am too much of a Star Trek fan. I saw the name as Cardassian!

Well...maybe this is not all that far off of an idea. There are Star Trek coins that have been minted as legal tender in countries like Australia. So PCGS could have Start Trek coins matched with labels of the same characters.
Cardassian_gul_ducat.jpg
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Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#7 Unread post by Daniel »

Earle42 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:53 pm Sorry - no advice here. But hey, what an idea! Now the companies can start offering advertising, charging a fee to the advertisers and keep the fee the same for collectors. Plus think of what it would do for making more registry set categories!

1904-o-morgan-gucci.jpg


Bob: Hey Fred, How's your Chiquita Banana Morgan set coming?
Fred: Well I got a an MS70 Chiquita Label the other day in a box of cereal!
Bob: For which Morgan?
Fred: Who cares, I got the grade and the label!
Bob: Ya' hear about the new Kentucky Fried Chicken slab certification sticker you can get now?
:character-jestercolor:
:laughing-rolling:

I am a huge Star Trek fan as well.

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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#8 Unread post by RevElvisLee »

Earle42 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:53 pm Sorry - no advice here. But hey, what an idea! Now the companies can start offering advertising, charging a fee to the advertisers and keep the fee the same for collectors. Plus think of what it would do for making more registry set categories!

1904-o-morgan-gucci.jpg


Bob: Hey Fred, How's your Chiquita Banana Morgan set coming?
Fred: Well I got a an MS70 Chiquita Label the other day in a box of cereal!
Bob: For which Morgan?
Fred: Who cares, I got the grade and the label!
Bob: Ya' hear about the new Kentucky Fried Chicken slab certification sticker you can get now?
:character-jestercolor:
I just noticed "PCSS". Is that "Professional Coin Selling Service" perchance? :D
Just my two cents...
Steve
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#9 Unread post by DSCoins »

Star Trek? I have seen every one of them, including the original (now I am dating myself). Am now in the process of watching "Star Trek Discovery" All the movies. Never thought about getting the coins though. I do know that if you go to the New Zealand mint https://www.nzmint.com/ you can find just about any series you may think of. Star trek, Star Wars, DC comics, Disney, Harry Potter, Oh Ya, they just do them in silver but gold also. All their "coins" are not just round but are what they call Chibi® Coins and yes, they are Legal Tender.
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#10 Unread post by Earle42 »

RevElvisLee wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 7:24 pm I just noticed "PCSS". Is that "Professional Coin Selling Service" perchance? :D
Check the serial number carefully... :D
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#11 Unread post by RevElvisLee »

So, this thread obviously came a little unraveled... 😂

If I could swing back around to my original inquiry, does anyone have an opinion about whether it's better to cross-over a coin or to crack it out? If you've had experience with both, I'd be interested to know what method has worked better for you, or what your preference is.
Just my two cents...
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#12 Unread post by Earle42 »

My fault - the Gucci label concept you came up with was too much for me to let go LOL!

Anyway...I have no experience with this. But from an outsider looking in, all I see is gamble no matter what. We all would hope it would get the good grade, but just no way to know how bad the coffee in the office will be that day for the graders.

Wondering if you did crack it out and they don't give the grade if ANACs might, which would be a lot less expensive and maybe back to square 1 without the Gucci label.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#13 Unread post by RevElvisLee »

Earle42 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:13 pm My fault - the Gucci label concept you came up with was too much for me to let go LOL!

Anyway...I have no experience with this. But from an outsider looking in, all I see is gamble no matter what. We all would hope it would get the good grade, but just no way to know how bad the coffee in the office will be that day for the graders.

Wondering if you did crack it out and they don't give the grade if ANACs might, which would be a lot less expensive and maybe back to square 1 without the Gucci label.
LOL. If I had the luxury of keeping it for myself (I'll get there someday!), I'd just leave it be. But I'm trying to grow my eBay store, pay my rent, and occasionally stash away the odd shiny bauble here and there. Anyway, it's not a terribly big gamble, seeing as I only paid $265 for it. If PCGS knocked it down a grade and a half, I'd still be in okay shape. It would be nice to get a win every once in awhile, though! 👍
Just my two cents...
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#14 Unread post by RevElvisLee »

I'm also raising a 12 yr old son on my own, so I'm trying to be smart about the way I do this. That's a big reason I'm always bugging you guys with so many annoying questions. :ugeek:
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#15 Unread post by Earle42 »

RevElvisLee wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:28 pm I'm also raising a 12 yr old son on my own, so I'm trying to be smart about the way I do this. That's a big reason I'm always bugging you guys with so many annoying questions. :ugeek:
And we are here to help people who legitimately want to know about coins...so its not bugging! Its part of our hobby :)

Let us know what happens.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#16 Unread post by RevElvisLee »

Earle42 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:13 pm My fault - the Gucci label concept you came up with was too much for me to let go LOL!

Anyway...I have no experience with this. But from an outsider looking in, all I see is gamble no matter what. We all would hope it would get the good grade, but just no way to know how bad the coffee in the office will be that day for the graders.

Wondering if you did crack it out and they don't give the grade if ANACs might, which would be a lot less expensive and maybe back to square 1 without the Gucci label.
You know, it just occurred to me. As ridiculous as I find the whole concept of CAC stickers on coins that have already been graded, the ONE area where they could actually be a useful service instead of a scam is to certify that the grades are correct on an ICG slab or old ANACS soapbar holder. They won't touch either one - I wonder why. It kind of makes you think... :think:
Just my two cents...
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#17 Unread post by Earle42 »

I have a feeling, since I always root for the underdog anyway (as well as have been accused of alway thinking outside the box), that the PCGS and NGC labels get more attention for the same reason so many other "brands" of ___________ (fill in the blank) seem to appeal to the masses people.

People have to pay more to use PCGS and NGC. so, as the human mindset goes, it HAS to be a better service. And the more money they pour into these companies, well then, of course the more ridiculous the other companies become. I am not saying this is a conscious happening either. Marketers know and love this phenomenon of the human condition.

A parallel is on this and other coin forums. Mr. Ima Newbie comes to coin forums seeking free expert advice, is told his coin is just damaged, and all of a sudden Mr. Newbie is elevated in his own eyes to being a lot smarter than the people he originally came to for expert advise as he explains to them why he DOES have a valuable error coin.

Yet Mr. Newbie automatically thinks it would be a hanging offense to question the writing on a slab. No matter how much fact you can show him to the contrary.

So what would it do to CAC's business if they would (stoop to) labeling the other (lesser) company slabs? BTW - I am not saying CAC is a snob (its a business - not a person). A business will do whatever they deem will advance their profits. CAC has PCGS and NGC people in their pocket and make good money off of this. I can see at present where labeling the psychologically mis-perceived "lesser" slabs may hurt the CAC business model.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#18 Unread post by RevElvisLee »

Earle42 wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 10:41 am I have a feeling, since I always root for the underdog anyway (as well as have been accused of alway thinking outside the box), that the PCGS and NGC labels get more attention for the same reason so many other "brands" of ___________ (fill in the blank) seem to appeal to the masses people.

People have to pay more to use PCGS and NGC. so, as the human mindset goes, it HAS to be a better service. And the more money they pour into these companies, well then, of course the more ridiculous the other companies become. I am not saying this is a conscious happening either. Marketers know and love this phenomenon of the human condition.

A parallel is on this and other coin forums. Mr. Ima Newbie comes to coin forums seeking free expert advice, is told his coin is just damaged, and all of a sudden Mr. Newbie is elevated in his own eyes to being a lot smarter than the people he originally came to for expert advise as he explains to them why he DOES have a valuable error coin.

Yet Mr. Newbie automatically thinks it would be a hanging offense to question the writing on a slab. No matter how much fact you can show him to the contrary.

So what would it do to CAC's business if they would (stoop to) labeling the other (lesser) company slabs? BTW - I am not saying CAC is a snob (its a business - not a person). A business will do whatever they deem will advance their profits. CAC has PCGS and NGC people in their pocket and make good money off of this. I can see at present where labeling the psychologically mis-perceived "lesser" slabs may hurt the CAC business model.
I know what you're saying, and I agree with you. If CAC serves a useful and legitimate purpose (besides putting the Blaupunkt in your Bentley, so to speak), it's to verify that your coin was not overgraded, right? So in my way of thinking, the fact that they will only do so for NGC and PCGS proves to me that they're not concerned with verifying a coin has received a proper grade, but rather boosting the values of NGC/PCGS holdered coins with no regard to the collector at all. My comment was sort of an off-the-cuff observation of how I thought they could be better and more useful, but I was looking at it all wrong. They make no pretense of being and unbiased 2nd opinion, do they?

Man... the more I learn about how this market works, the steeper the mountain looms.
Just my two cents...
Steve
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#19 Unread post by Paul »

"Man... the more I learn about how this market works, the steeper the mountain looms."


....... & you're just approaching the foothills :ugeek:
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#20 Unread post by RevElvisLee »

Paul wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:38 pm "Man... the more I learn about how this market works, the steeper the mountain looms."


....... & you're just approaching the foothills :ugeek:
And I thought I was in the headlands! :doh:
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#21 Unread post by Paul »

Just keep your head down, ask questions, and memorize answers......

Due to a steeper than average learning curve, 95% give up!
(You know this is so easy right?)

Oh yeah, make sure that you look at hundreds of thousands of coins :ugeek:
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#22 Unread post by Earle42 »

I agree with the CAC theory you proposed.

Besides that...my take.

You send CAC a PCGS Morgan MS63 labeled slab and get a green sticker. Ok - so CAC says PCGS did their job right*.

But then the coin is broken out, resubmitted, and let's say comes back M@64 or MS62.

Oops...so...what about the former CAC sticker that said PCGS was correct?

I do think it possible to see a coin has been undergraded, so there could be some validity to CAC saying something is undergraded, but...sending the coin in does not mean it WILL get the better grade! Again we hit a wall b/c there is no science where there should and could be.

Do I have an actual, in -hand example of the above scenario? No. But since CAC is just doing what PCGS does - giving an opinion with no verifiable standard, the scenario is posssible...and I would suspect it to be probable.

*Well...by definition there can be no "right" when there is no verifiable standard. What the CAC verifies is more like asking someone to draw a ruler (PCGS), and have another person (CAC) say the ryler looks good enough to them, but they have no actual ruler to check it by.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#23 Unread post by RevElvisLee »

Earle42 wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:56 pm
I do think it possible to see a coin has been undergraded, so there could be some validity to CAC saying something is undergraded, but...sending the coin in does not mean it WILL get the better grade! Again we hit a wall b/c there is no science where there should and could be.
I just sold a really nice 1882-S Morgan (MS65) in the old ANACS Soapbar holder this morning that, if I'm comparing it to other MS65s I've seen, seems like it actually could have been undergraded. But I like the little white holders. I think a lot of people do. They're unobtrusive, and showcase the actual coin more than a PCGS holder does. I WAS thinking about crossing it, too! But somebody offered me a decent price and... well, as the old axiom says: "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". 👍
Just my two cents...
Steve
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