PCGS Grading?

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PCGS Grading?

#1 Unread post by Cje »

Hi, I inherited about 2500 pennies from years dated 1969-1973.I also got pennies from 1930’s through 1960’s but the bulk are in pape wrapping. I decided to watch a few videos from Coinhelpu on YouTube and started looking at my coins through an eye-piece 15x and 10x. I found lots of coins where the date is doubled or the word “Liberty “ is doubled. So I sent in 11 coins to get graded at PCGS for my first try! While waiting for grading I found a few more coins where all the letters on the coin are doubled! They are probably better than the initial 11 coins I sent. So I thought let me wait until I receive the graded coins before I submit more coins. Well PCGS received my order on 11 Jan 2022. I got my order back on 23 May 2022 after a few emails of asking where the coins are.
My question is...I had five coins that had doubled date or doubled “Liberty or doubled mint mark but on the encapsulated holder it doesn’t say double struck or double die or doubled anything.It only gives MS65 etc. Should it read double struck? Or double die etc? Daniel I would love to get your email address if possible ? I could send those coins for re-grading but I’ll probably only get them back by Christmas!
I have thousands of coins to go through, I’ve only gone through about 200 and found lots of doubling, wether machine doubling or doubled die I wouldn’t know but very frustrating that not one of the five coins I sent with clear doubling doesn’t mention anything about what doubling it is? I don’t know if I should even bother looking at the rest of the coins. I found two more where everything on obverse side is doubled. It cost $475 to grade the 11 coins. Not sure I wanna spend anymore. Any advice would be appreciated.

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Re: PCGS Grading?

#2 Unread post by musospuso »

You have to specify (it's a checkbox I believe) that you want a variety attribution when submitting the coins and it's an extra fee. They won't attribute a variety or error unless you specifically ask them to. It's a separate or rather additional service on top of the grading. At least that's what I have heard and read. Perhaps someone here can provide first hand experience.
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Re: PCGS Grading?

#3 Unread post by JTCC »

musospuso wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 11:16 pm You have to specify (it's a checkbox I believe) that you want a variety attribution when submitting the coins and it's an extra fee. They won't attribute a variety or error unless you specifically ask them to. It's a separate or rather additional service on top of the grading. At least that's what I have heard and read. Perhaps someone here can provide first hand experience.
I agree, the companies would not inspect the coin in efforts to find/attribute any errors/varieties for you unless requested. Also, your coin may very possibly have machine doubling/other types of non-collectible doubling, which is not errors and therefore would not be attributed. Not all coins showing doubling are doubled dies. Grading is a very complex topic that even the most seasoned collector cannot fully understand/master.
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Re: PCGS Grading?

#4 Unread post by Paul »

........ I would recommend imaging them the best you can, and posting your examples here first. :ugeek:
Only because I believe you just blew a huge amount of money for nothing. :?:
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Re: PCGS Grading?

#5 Unread post by Cje »

Thanks for your replies regarding this. Yip I had variety attribution on 9 of the coins. 5 coins that had clear visible doubling!
I also checked the box “Genuine with details”.
I will post some pics soon hopefully that is allowed.

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Re: PCGS Grading?

#6 Unread post by Cje »

Proof of variety attribution
Proof of variety attribution

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Re: PCGS Grading?

#7 Unread post by musospuso »

Cje wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 12:02 pm EFDF9F16-156D-44A1-9FB1-56E4B20A62F3.jpeg
You'll want to contact their support but my guess is it wasn't real doubling, perhaps Machine Doubling or some other "non-real" variety that they wouldn't attribute. Again, that's just a guess, you'll want to get clarification from PCGS themselves if indeed you paid for their attribution service which it looks like you did. Curious to hear their response.
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Re: PCGS Grading?

#8 Unread post by Earle42 »

I am so sorry yet another victim of their system has just blown a huge wad for nothing. I suspect the companies love the profits they make from this kind of thing that happens so very often, b/c they sure do nothing to try to prevent it.

You have fallen into the trap so many newbies do by assuming the grading companies are just a natural part of the hobby, and that every good coin needs to be put into a slab making it worth a ton of money.

Please read the following for your answers.

An insider's Guide to the coin grading companies:

Reading this will help you make better educated decisions concerning these companies and your hard earned cash.😊:

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Here is some beginners fishing tackle. Its worth your time to read.


Thinking of Slabbing? Make sure you understand the Facts...or You Could Lose Money.


Popular mistaken mindset:
1. The grading companies are not a way that the majority of people, even those with a great deal of experience who know what they are doing, are going to be able to use in order to make huge personal profits. Many people start using grading companies thinking they will find a way to finance their hobby, but they learn a hard lesson quickly.

Professional predicting not possible:
2. Watch some of Daniel's videos where he gets slabbed coins back from the grading companies. Note even people who live, eat, breath, and deal coins for a living (like Daniel) can accurately predict what grade the companies will give. And...the "fault" (not really a fault) is in a widespread mistaken perception people get from being exposed to all the slabs being sold nowadays:

a. Coin grading companies are a business out to make a profit - this is why they exist. They use a system where allegedly three, but in reality its normally two, graders look at each coin and give an opinion. The company videos showing the process make you believe this is a relaxed and paced process of studying each coin. In fact one PCGS video shows a number of guys sitting around a table discussing what they think a specific coin should be graded as (on youtube somewhere - sorry no link). Uh uh.

b. If you take a PCGS graded coin slabbed as MS64, break it out, and resubmit it to PCGS, you are never guaranteed the same grade again. The slabbed coin might come back MS62 (extreme and a bad day for graders), 63, 64, 65, 66 (extreme and a great day for you!). This is b/c the process is all subjective: No scientific/verifiable standards or methods are used. This subjectivity makes for greater company profits since people resubmit the same coin trying to get a higher (better price when selling) grade. In the 90s the companies, at great expense, created better (their own words) scientific methods not relying upon human opinion. No doubt the large profit from the re-slabbing game fell. The companies abandoned the science and went back to their less accurate systems.

But..this is all hearsay without proof. So...
Grading the Coin Graders

Here is another good read from someone there at the start of the grading companies:
Hobby negative impacts from slabbing companies

Error on errors:
3. People also seem to think grading companies will examine a coin to see if they can find an error and then slab it as such. But again, they ONLY GRADE coins. The companies will NOT try to find and ID an error for you. You must FIRST ID the error yourself, CHECK to see if the company you want to use recognizes that specific error, PAY them to verify the error on the label, and then you may or may not actually get what you pay for! The companies have a bad reputation for attributing errors incorrectly.

Link to and read (download if you want it) the pdf link in my signature as an eye opening example. Sadly, the verifiable data presented from the PCGS website shows trusting people have spent thousands of dollars on many slabbed coins that are not what the companies claims/slabbed the coins to be.

Cost concerns:
4. B/c people do not understand the businesses, so very many people end up with spending far more money to slab a coin than the coin is worth. The companies profit greatly with membership fees, submission fees, insurance fees, shipping fees and extra (chosen) fees. ANACs does not have all these fees though.


You don't have to throw in the towel over these companies...but education about the reality of them will put you on the right pathway to dealing with them in a legit way without losing money in the process.


And…if you just like to collect slabbed coins for what they are, which makes losing/making money from slabs irrelevant, then of course enjoy them!" 😊
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Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
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Re: PCGS Grading?

#9 Unread post by Daniel »

I don't grade coins but I will tell you two things, the coins were not doubled dies or they were not doubled dies PCGS recognizes, In that you can't do anything about it and neither can anyone else. You only send varieties that PCGS has listed in their price guide and you should not send coins until you learn about coin grading and how to ID varieties by looking your coin up at CONECA Variety Vista, Wexlers doubleddie.com.
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Re: PCGS Grading?

#10 Unread post by Cje »

Okay here are some pics. Not easy to get good pics. All I need to know is....should the variety attribution not state underneath the “MS” that the coin is machine double struck or doubled-die or anything like that? I’m not worried about the actual MS rating but I would like to know what kind of doubling they are since I paid for variety attribution?
6F9F04CB-6842-40E1-9849-E2EF4DB9E5AC.jpeg
141D2A73-9E22-497D-90E9-D34ABECB2457.jpeg

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Re: PCGS Grading?

#11 Unread post by Cje »

Are these coins dates and mint mark not doubled in any way? The above coin is 1970 “s” the “9” ,”7”,”0” “S” are all doubled clearly in some way either by die or strike whatever but the discription about the coin says nothing?
Here are more coins....

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Re: PCGS Grading?

#12 Unread post by Cje »

99CA62E3-3B36-4896-BDD3-853AFB70D1F5.jpeg
86EE87D7-35E7-4AFD-AE18-1A3FF618E172.jpeg

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Re: PCGS Grading?

#13 Unread post by Cje »

6C76D61A-1E12-498A-8C55-5DC9CEDDC885.jpeg
8896A2B3-F744-4729-9FD9-201D8F6EAD30.jpeg

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Re: PCGS Grading?

#14 Unread post by Cje »

39F80D94-D6A3-4576-84B3-E32B34BD6DCD.jpeg
46999BB2-89B6-4652-9925-236D00926B1D.jpeg

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Re: PCGS Grading?

#15 Unread post by Cje »

The above coin 1972 “2” is doubled on the top and in the middle of the number if you look for it , besides the “7” & “9”

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Re: PCGS Grading?

#16 Unread post by Cje »

299DAE20-7784-47F4-9DA7-5725812463F6.jpeg

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Re: PCGS Grading?

#17 Unread post by Cje »

These were the first ever coins I submitted. Two coins got MS65, two got MS64. Some of the 11 coins I submitted were very low MS rating but I was keen to submit coins not realizing I still have thousands of pennies to go through.I have since found way better coins to submit where “In God We Trust” “Liberty “ and date is clearly doubled! Am I just mistaken to think that the variety attribution or discription should state what doubling these coins are?
Thanks for all the advice from everyone and to Daniel I will definitely check at Coneca or Wexlers which coins PCGS recognize before sending more coins 👍🏻 I did not know about that thankyou.

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Re: PCGS Grading?

#18 Unread post by Daniel »

Doubled dies are varieties, small date is a variety, repunched mint mark is a variety but strike doubling or mechanical doubling isn't a variety so PCGS isn't going to put that on the label. It must be a variety.

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Re: PCGS Grading?

#19 Unread post by CaptJohn2 »

You need to go to the PCGS site and look at which dates have recognized double dies. Do not waste money unless your coins look like the ones shown on the PCGS site. The 1970-S you show here appears to have minor machine doubling at date and mint mark. The "good" double dies for this year have massive doubling of the legend.

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/197 ... v-rd/92939

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Re: PCGS Grading?

#20 Unread post by JTCC »

I agree, the coins shown in the images exhibit Machine doubling, which is not actual doubled dies. They would not be attributed by any major grading services and do not have any additional value.
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Re: PCGS Grading?

#21 Unread post by DSCoins »

Cje wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 12:50 am Okay here are some pics. Not easy to get good pics. All I need to know is....should the variety attribution not state underneath the “MS” that the coin is machine double struck or doubled-die or anything like that? I’m not worried about the actual MS rating but I would like to know what kind of doubling they are since I paid for variety attribution?
No, none of the top-level grading services (First Tear, PCGS and NGC; Second Tear ANACS and ICG), won't put Machine Doubling, Die Deterioration, or any type of "non-collectable varieties" on their labels. About the only good lesson you may have learned out of this mess is... Research, Research, Research. I recommend that in the future you really need to post your coins here first
I would like to know what kind of doubling they are since I paid for variety attribution?

This is where so many people go wrong. They say they paid for attribution but did not get anything on their coin. When you get right down to it, they did attribute your coin and determined that it was not a DDO, DDR. They are laughing all the way to the bank. You paid 65 Dollars for each coin you wanted attributed. So as far as either, a net loss vs net gain I am willing to bet you have a large net loss.
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Re: PCGS Grading?

#22 Unread post by Earle42 »

I do not believe you read the ling post I initially made concerning the true nature of what grading companies are/do or your recents posts and questions would have been answered.

Do yourself a favor...take the time to read that long post and understand exactly why your got the results you did. It will save you a lot of money in the future form making the same mistakes.

You are paying them big bucks and expecting them to do things they do not even offer in their business to do!

You are your own worst enemy if you shell out money to these companies again before you understand what they are/do!
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: PCGS Grading?

#23 Unread post by Raizac »

.
Attachments
1973-D O.jpg
19873-D R.jpg
1973-D 001.jpg
1973-D 002.jpg
1973-D 003.jpg
1973-D 004.jpg
1973-D 005.jpg
1973-D 007.jpg
1973-D 008.jpg
1973-D 009.jpg
Last edited by Raizac on Wed Jun 01, 2022 11:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: PCGS Grading?

#24 Unread post by Raizac »

true view photo
cert_43643047_trueview_231157324_Large.jpg
true view sinp.png
the photo bellow is pcgs main coin for the 1973 D ddo-fs 101
snip of pcgs 1973 d ddo fs 102.png

i just looked at preview and sorry that the photos blow to max magnifaction

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Re: PCGS Grading?

#25 Unread post by Earle42 »

@Ralzac:
Please start your own thread concerning your coin (BTW - nice DDO!). A person starting their own discussion of their own coin inside someone else's thread is said to be "hijacking" the OP's (original poster's) thread they opened to discuss their own subject.

Besides that, when you make your own thread, you will get more people seeing it than if your post was buried deep inside a thread that has been around for awhile.

If you need help knowing what to do...use the following link with a step by step video by Daniel showing how to post to the forum:

Click here, READ the guidelines list and please watch the video!
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: PCGS Grading?

#26 Unread post by Raizac »

well i thought daniel started this from his y.t. video. so I was just responding to him sorry

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Re: PCGS Grading?

#27 Unread post by Daniel »

This is someone's topic they started for their coin, and not the forum. It's just a topic in the forum.

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